Thread: Thoughts on a full race motor setup

Ok, so my scanner still is not working so i tried to take decent photo's of the dyno sheets. I have more i could share but i'll let you ponder about these ones first.

SR20DE
11.5:1 comp
Solid lifter setup/ Jun 280 cams
custom 4-1 header
Standalone
head work

This dyno show's the usual gains in Power and powerband shift from cam gear settings. This is a big cam DE motor so the power gains in the Mid RPM range are huge from tuning the cam gears. If you notice the gains above 6500rpm are minimal by advancing the intake cam and above 7700rpm leaving the intake cam at "0" actually starts to make more power. As you can also see going to the blue line, Retarding the Exhaust cam makes power everywhere in the RPM band and about 10whp from 5000rpm+. This was actually a very good street setup.

GREEN- Cams at "0,0"
RED- Cams at "+6,0"
BLUE- Cams at "+6,-4"



This next one is comparing a built 2.0L VET setup.
9.7:1 compression
35/30mm valves
Fully ported head
Jun springs/retainers
SR16VE cams ( std)
Cut open, fully ported N1 manifold/ T/B
T67/T4 .68 divided turbine housing, STG5 wheel
Divided turbo manifold
4" down pipe/ exhaust
Apex Power FC management

13-14psi

I have built 2 setups like this one, but this one was the better one of the 2. This motor was built 3 years ago and is still running today. This motor also was dyno'd again at another shop and had more tweaking done to it and made a little more power, about 20whp more at the same boost. This engine makes power to 10,000rpm before HP falls off. This engine was never built for super high boost, 1 bar normally and 18-20 here and there but the clutch setup could not hold the power.

This is showing the power differences in adjusting cam gears on the dyno. As you can see the BLUE really made more power down low and actually spooled the turbo faster than any other cam gear settings. Then the RED run i went -10 on the intake cam and it lost power everywhere in boost. Now that is the one with the least amount of overlap. The GREEN run is a great run. sure it made a little less low end and spooled the turbo a little slower, but it had the best overal power band. Not shown on this sheet, the +5,0 Blue run really fell on its face at about 8000rpm and was almost 100whp behind the Green run.

BLUE- +5, 0
RED- +5, -10
GREEN- 0, -4



This next sheet is just a comparison between the +5, -10 runs (BLUE/RED) and the +0, -4 runs (GREEN/PURPLE)

Just overlaying 2 of each runs back to back here. as you can see the one with LESS OVERLAP MAKES THE LEAST POWER HERE and the higher you rev the engine, the greater the power difference is.

BLUE/RED +5, -10
GREEN/PURPLE +0, -4



This sheet is comparing the Previous VET at 13-14 ( say 14psi) to a DET setup with a T3/T4 60-1 turbo and 2 different turbine housings. S4 cams, JWT ECU 3" exhaust Tubular manifold.

GREEN- VET setup, 14psi
RED- .63 housing, 21psi
BLUE- .82 housing, 16psi



Now here is the GT3071R turbo comparisons. I have 2 sheets to compare. I would put all 3 setups on one sheet but it gets harder to read. These are all RWD setups so the same "setup" in a FWD should yield a bit more power.

BLUE
S14 RWD DET (NVCS removed)
10:1 compression
272, 12.5mm lift cams
Ported head, stock valves
stock intake manifold, 60mm T/B
small diameter tubular divided turbo manifold
GT3071R T3 .82 divided turbine housing
FMIC 2" hotside, 2.25-2.5" cold side piping

20psi

RED
RWD S13
Greddy Intake manifold
264, 11.5mm cams
Tubular top mount
GT3071R .63 T3 turbo

20psi

As you can see the Divided housing sure can spool much much faster with the right parts. Both of these motors have had the cam gears tuned for optimal power. the Owner of the "red" dyno chart did not want his motor rev'd out any higher because he had miss shifted and broken rocker arms several times so he is scared to rev it higher. Also, to give an idea of how fast that divided housing setup spools, you can see that WOT was applied at 2600rpm.

I would really love to see this turbo setup on a VET build one day. If i had time and a car to put it in, I may actually do this one. A lower reving ( 8000rpm by lower) setup with full boost between 4000-4500rpm.



Lastly here is the same Divided GT3071R run compared to a GT3071R on the same motor a year earlier ( 2 years ago now).

RED
Same Divided setup as above

20psi

BLUE
S14 motor WITH NVCS
264 12.0mm cams
Silkroad turbo manifold
GT3071R .86
Ported head
Same FMIC setup as above

22psi



Enjoy!

-Ted

This is a great post. Thanks Ted. The first two are FWD I am guessing.

Brilliant post, that N/A DE is making so much power, wish mine was near that. Wish I was more knowledgable before I did my build.

I like N/A DE build with JUN cams.. more info? Money shot?

I know and he mentioen Silk road manifold ....they are up there where chuck is at also , here is a link to the shop Chuck is at .....there is so awsome manifolds out there .... Advanced Street Performance Custom Turbo Manifolds | Stainless Headers | Collectors | Flanges | Biran Crower Products | Amsoil | Silk Road Suspension

I have try to talk to him when I am home ....in a few months

Its actually easier to get even more power than that. Thats a 2.0L and you can go to a solid 2.3L easy with just sleeves now. thats a 15% increase right there. Kelford has a nice set of NA DE cams solid lash that work really well. very big but a little more "streetable" than C6M cams that motor above with a little more headwork, C6M cams probobly could have gotten closer to 250-260whp in reality. The header may have needed to be rebuilt as well...

with a 2.3L and the right parts, 250whp DE is easy

-Ted

So what are the limits of a big bore VE build? Given the proper head porting and intake manifold design?

i would say the limits are endless but we all know thats not the case. as far as head flow goes, the highest numbers i have seen is 377cfm IN and 268 EX. that is on my flow bench. there are a lot of ingenuitive things u can do with the valvetrain to improve upon it. as for engine limitations go, the largest i think on the factory non deck plate block is a 94x94.5 stroke.

300whp is not out of reach for these motors, just 99% of most peoples budgets.

-Ted

What would you say the limit is on standard stroke?

I pretty much have my head sorted, and already have a decent ITB setup. Next step would be to modify the head for larger valves and off course (possibly DE exhaust valves?) much larger custom cams, and I also want to try a 90mm bore, but I can't justify spending money on a changing the stroke.

touring car headers and 3" exhaust and off course standalone.

From a performance standpoint you always want to go with the largest bore possible. I may have a larger 94mm bore block but you need some "special" block prep and a custom gasket for it. 92mm is currently the largest bore what I would say is "available" to the average guy out there. This puts you with a 2287 cc motor with the 86mm crank. Whenever you increase bore size by sleeving you should always do a very low deshroud angle around the valves in the combustion chamber. The gains in flow here can be huge if done correctly.

As far as valves go, the largest "safe" valve size is a 36mm IN and 32mm EX. you have to change all the valve seats for those sizes ofcourse which 99% of people wont do because it costs $$ to do so. It is very easy to have $3000 into a cylinder head for a Max performance setup but it will perform.

Which ITB setup do you have? I have only seen 2 ITB setups for SR20DE motors that are actually "decent" should I say that. These have the correct 4deg taper from the trumpet to the intake port and the correct flare on the horns. Also, most of the "other" ITB setups I have seen are also running throttle plates that are too small for a motor making over 200whp. Those of you know how to check to see if the throttle plates are too small, you know what i'm talking about and why.

I would only add stroke to the motor once you have the largest (safe) bore size that you can or want to run. Then after cylinder head and other needed work, if you need more power or can not get any more air into the motor by means of head work and or cams, change the crank for more stroke but only after the previous has been taken care of. I have seen people do 87x91mm turbo motors quite often, and they use the stock head, "shelf" cams (264 11.0mm lift or so) and they use a stock cast turbo manifold and a S15 turbo. They seem to be dissapointed when they dont make 500whp and they dont understand why. I have seen plenty of 2.0L builds, turbo and NA make more power than larger 2.2/2.3L setups because they ignored most everything else on their motor that actually make the HP gains.

Doctor G, which touring car header do you have? I got one from japan from a 94 JTCC car. I do not plan on using it however because it is not the optimal setup for most motors. It is mainly built that way to run the exhaust over the transmission. You may actually make more power with a one off custom header.

-Ted