Thread: Thoughts on a full race motor setup

Agreed, thats the next big thing on the list for our 2.2L build is a nice header from mr Greg V. The gains on a stock motor are enough to make it all worth it. If they flow that good on a stock motor think how well they flow on a built motor. I think with a proper size intake manifold and header even a 2.0 can make pretty freakin good power. This thread is really getting interesting. It would be much better if more people were actually doing big builds but again it costs alot of money to do an N/A build compared to a turbo build, I mean hell with the amount of money my buddy has spent he could have a build 2.0 block pistons/rods/cams/even still went with the VE head but with an equal length and Gt30 or 35 turbo made over 2X as much to the wheels but turbo is pretty easy compared to n/a. N/a is where it really takes some skill and knowhow to really make a good setup.

an NA build does not have to be expensive, you just have to know what parts to use, and what work to do to the motor to make the right parts work to make the power you want. I have built a few DE motors that have made more power than most VE setups out there for less than you can do a 2.0L VE motor with all the boltons. Again it comes down to the right header but even the fact that both the DE and VE need a good header that is in the $1200-1500 range or more to make the right power, you can leave that out of the equation. Even with a stock DE crank, DE rods, sr16ve pistons, port cleanup work, shelf DE cams, and a few other factory parts and some good tuning, you can get 200whp and 150-160tq no problem WITH THE RIGHT PARTS ofcourse...

The same goes for the VE, 2.0, 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, 2.5L it doesnt matter. Most people that want to do an NA build will always take some sort of shortcut just to get the car together and leave out some of the best parts needed to make the power desired. I wouldnt say that building a turbo motor is cheaper than an NA motor. Most people do not complete the setup as it should and they leave out parts critical to make the engine run efficiently and safely at full load. A GOOD turbo setup as you listed does include a tubular manifold, GT30/35R turbo, FMIC and piping, Oil cooler, management, fuel system and such that are not needed on an NA setup. that right there is a REALISTIC $3000+ in parts that you do not need for an NA setup. The biggest thing people skimp out on for boosted setups is on the coolant system ( yes that includes the oiling system) which on an NA motor you do not have as high of a quantity of heat generated to deal with.

if you did a std crank VE motor and sleeved it to 92mm you have a near 2.3L motor. You always want to go as large of a bore as you can for best performance. Then change the stroke as required for your goals. If you are building a 2.0L or a 2.3L here, the only change in cost is the sleeving of the block which is roughly $1000 which for 15% change in displacement, that is cheap power.

All this talk of cams is great but the fact of the matter is that if/when someone comes out with cams that are PROVEN to make more power in a stock motor over N1's ( and i'm talking power everywhere through the power band) I dont really see many people actually buying them. These cams will probobly be $800 or so for the pair or up and a lot of people will talk about buying them but as always, only a slight minority will bite in. Its the same in every aftermarket car line. Even in the Honda K-series world there are people that will not spend $1625 for a set of cams, but they will spend $450 for a set of cheap copy's that make "some" power over stock but not huge gains. Even in Larger motors, say a 2.2L VE, if you dont change anything, just change the bore size to 90mm and put it backtogether, the engine will still respond like a stock motor with 10% more displacement, that wont change much on how the engine acts because the cylinder head is stock. This type of motor will still respond to cams like a stock engine. Once you get into REAL headwork and intake manifold resonance and fluid flow, you will have a better idea.

The only way to get a GOOD set of cams for a larger motor designed is by getting some real solid headflow #'s and by putting those cylinder heads on the motor and on the dyno and actually testing them out. Yes this costs money, No probobly no one will want to do this so in the end, its easy to see why cams arent around for these motors.

Also, as for setting up the N1 cams. If you are setting the cams up by "guessing" at what centerlines to run, or "so and so ran this and made this here so i'm gonna do this instead" Then you really dont know what is going on with the valve events and why the N1 cams are ground with the profile that they do have. the VE motors still respond to the same similar centerlines as the DE motor does but with a higher flowing head. people started doing the +4-4, +5-5 thing because of a few people years ago that started testing them on the dyno and yes it has trickled down the ladder but that doesnt mean it is the best or will work best for your setup. Exhaust valve opening and header design go hand in hand so what works with one header may not work with another one as well.

the only TRUE way to setup ANY camshaft(s) is by degreeing them in an knowing where u are starting at with the opening/closing events and C/L's

-Ted

That makes sense, and it's a good read. I remember my buddy saying the F22 motor in the S2K was garbage and responded poorly to mods, but it just took the right parts to work together to make power. I think this is the case with the VE. You can't get a big cam and big displacement and expect it to make power, you need all the parts to work just right at a certain rpm. The new K series motor has over 100% volumetric efficiency in certain parts of the rev range just because the parts are in sync with each other.

The closest we got to the K series is the 20V motor, but even a standard VE can make more power than the K. It just needs some reworking. A basic port job should yeild flow in the range of 300cfm.

the reason why the s2k motors dont respond well to mods (or rather basic mods) is cause these things are fully engineered naturally aspirated performance engines straight from honda, and last time i checked honda had a lot more $$$$ to spend on r&d than joe blogs down at garage x that thinks he knows what it takes to make an engine go hard.

its not that the f22 is garbage, but rather that it is over engineer for its purpose. making it hard to improve upon. Its almost a case of the reason its soo crap is cause its soo good.

I have worked on 2 S2000 2.2L motor setups and with Management, Cams, a GOOD header you can make about 275whp. With some ITB's and messing with the cam timing more you can get over 300whp with just a few mods. Sure the cams are $1200 a pair, the ITB's are $1800, the header is $1500 and the management is $1000+ but your also gaining about 50% more WHP. The F20/22C does not have the adjustable cam gear like The K series motors so you have to remove the valve cover and manually adjust cam timing like the SR20. Most people are lazy to do this but in fact with larger cams, most of your power gains come with cam timing adjustments.

As for a basic port job making 300CFM, I would say otherwise. Only the Early production VE heads are the "good" ones because they do not have any core shift. The later heads have enough core shift that unless you weld the head up or Install larger valve seats you will be left with a few large steps from the port to the valve seat. A stock VE head flows anywhere from 235cfm-274cfm @ .500" lift. with no good cams to lift that high, the number that we should be worried about is .450" lift, just under 12.0mm. I have seen several pics of people with "ported" heads on many forums including this one and all people seem to do is stick the gasket on the intake surface and port the runner opening in the head out as large as they can and then leave the Valve pockets and throats stock and dont even give it a good valve grind or any grind at all. Some of the cheapest power can be picked up in a good valve grind. Factory valve grinds are not made for power but for longevity.

The 2002 Late model VE motor or 20V as it seems to be called is a great engine but it is improved upon in ways not seen on the dyno. It is basically just a more efficient design of the original SR20VE engine. The head flows only slightly more than a std VE head but has a higher port velocity because of the design. There are many more advantages to that newer style head and I have seen about everything covered on here by Andreas Miko on why it is better but 99% of the people will not know how to use its advantages to their use.

-Ted

I am aware of the modifications needed to make this work. Luckily I have access to a good engine builder who will be able to make the changes required.




AFAIK they are billets, but what is the difference. I can always check.




How can I tell the difference between the older (good) and the later (bad) heads? Once the head has been flowed and modified does it still matter which head it is?

nooooooo, that is horrid!

I would much rather leave it completely alone than do that, at least you have the velocity as intended.

In my case i did in fact leave the intake alone (well beside the 3 angle valve grind) as i didnt want to mess with it too much. However i did do major porting to the ex with attention payed to the throats and valve pockets. This head is intended for turbo, so i felt their wont be big gains tampering with the intake as it flows quite well standard so pretty much left it alone. For an na set up there would be good gain to be had from GOOD port work on the intake

true thats why im almost thinking since im gonna be turboing the ve if i should just leave the intake ports alone for the most part maybe just clean them up some and focus more on the exhaust side of things. I know the exhaust ports are really no better than the det for the most part if not worse because of the smaller valves.

But ill be doing 1mm oversize intake and 1mm oversize exhaust valves when the head comes off and im thinking to more focus on the exhaust side to keep backpressure down and keep it flowing as best as it can possibly to keep temps down.

It's all about flow, not valve size. I doubt the stock valves are even much of a restriction unless you are flowing a ton. I guess if you are going for maximum power on 10psi you would benefit 10whp from doing bigger valves, but it's not worth it for me.

Isn't that JP guy making over 500whp on a stock cam RR motor??? Who cares if a K20 makes more power on less boost, most guys with a K20 turbo are not in the power level I am unless they spend a ton of money.

I haven't flowed my VE head, but the port size and the overall design is good enough for me. I have pics of my VE head and a Fully worked 3SGTE head to compare... I would rather have the stock VE head. And this 3sGTE is making over 700whp on a "small" gt42r.

If I were to build a full race setup I would use my engine with a HUGE turbo. GT4202R and go full standalone. Then I would just see what it will push on a stock head with just valve springs and retainers. I bet over 800hp with a good custom cam, with no port work. I have seen engines make power that I can't believe with head designs that suck compared to the VE.