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Thread: Timing Maps for Tuning

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Posts: 41-50 of 156
2011-02-11 11:28:18
#41
map
Is there a data log of this run I would like to see this.

First off in this map why not rescale this map and get rid of th "grey area" not being used. remember when it goes to the end of the map it will not fall off the map it will have that same number even if it exceeds the load or rpm. Aem maps are very generic. Most of them dont work properly and need many adjustments.

I would start my map looking something like this. this is just a generic map.

Notice my scaling of the kpa and rpms. Yes the map sensor is a 3.5 bar but I dont need to use the values that exceed 25 psi. This way the map will allow for better resolution in lower rpms. This helps for drive ability. I would much rather see the area under boost have lower resolution this way it will stay in the area and be solid timing numbers.
I always make so I can control them not the other way around. You can always add timing, but when you have too much to start you can have worse failures. You should always data log and see where the timing is moving to. Especially on the street where you dont have much control.
2011-02-11 11:42:34
#42
Originally Posted by BenFenner
Take a look at the base AEM SR20DET tune I posted above. Torque peak (5,500 rpm) at 170 kPa (10 psi) is 20 degrees and that includes wiggle room as it's meant as a safe map to use as a base for tuning. Bone stock DET setups that don't breath, so they don't get any air, so you wouldn't be dealing with aggressively retarded timing like you would with an engine that breathes.


wiggle room aem set that at 20 degrees.

here is a stock det map im seeing 12 to 11 degrees at 3200 rpms. at 5200 rpms its seeing 14 to 15 degrees.
2011-02-11 11:57:08
#43
Originally Posted by Vadim
Supercowboy, take a look at Enthalpy base map, mine is pretty much identical to it, except I smoothed it out and built on it a little bit. Now Enthalpy does mention that being a base map to build on. This could be based on RWD SR20DET. But I can't imagine RWD DET being too different from FWD DET.

22 degrees is alot. if you read his post he recomends pulling .75 per pound of boost. a stock sr motor has 15 degrees of timing at 5000. why would you add when you boost it? He clearly states to pull timing out.

your map on post 3 looks better.



Originally Posted by Vadim
That was a 100% street tuned, I was planning to hit the dyno on it, but ended up selling the car before that happened.

Having a MAF is nice, but MAP has the easier to tune advantage. The problem I have with MAF's is finding a good turbulent free location and finding a used MAF that still has a good idle voltage.



That's what I did, it's hard to get it right and accurate though. Especially while your driving
2011-02-11 13:53:59
#44
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Last edited by Haulin200sx on 2011-02-11 at 14-05-06.
2011-02-11 14:02:03
#45
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Last edited by Haulin200sx on 2011-02-11 at 14-05-15.
2011-02-11 14:57:28
#46
Originally Posted by supercowboy
22 degrees is alot. if you read his post he recomends pulling .75 per pound of boost. a stock sr motor has 15 degrees of timing at 5000. why would you add when you boost it? He clearly states to pull timing out.

your map on post 3 looks better.


Let me build a map based 100% on what enthalapy is saying in his posts. We might be understanding him wrong.

I also should have some data logs left over, I'll see if I can find some .

Map on post 3 is Calum's base map. Plus it does not have any boost to TP correlation.
2011-02-11 15:09:25
#47
Originally Posted by supercowboy
Is there a data log of this run I would like to see this.
There probably are plenty of data logs. The laptop with them is gone forever though, so I won't be able to show them. :-(

Originally Posted by supercowboy
First off in this map why not rescale this map and get rid of th "grey area" not being used.
If you're talking about the VEMS map, it's because I was planning on tuning the boost section once I added the turbo, and I did.

If you're talking about the AEM map, it's because we were turning up the boost daily and had no idea where we'd stop. Same for the rpm range. We planned on going higher.

Originally Posted by supercowboy
remember when it goes to the end of the map it will not fall off the map it will have that same number even if it exceeds the load or rpm.
That may be how the daughter boards work, but I haven't looked that hard into AEM and what it does when you leave the map. Are you sure it holds the value of the last cell? I figured it did something similar to VEMS, which takes the last two values in the map and creates a line that follows that trend on forever. Again, AEM's maps are so large I haven't worried about it.

Originally Posted by supercowboy
Aem maps are very generic. Most of them dont work properly and need many adjustments.
I'll have to take your word for it. From what I've seen they are not generic at all. They are specifically for stock applications, and specifically safe. If you try to use them on something else, obviously you have some playing to do.

How many AEM base ignition maps have you used on bone stock applications?


Originally Posted by supercowboy
I would start my map looking something like this. this is just a generic map.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v103/supercowboy/stockmap.jpg
Notice my scaling of the kpa and rpms. Yes the map sensor is a 3.5 bar but I dont need to use the values that exceed 25 psi. This way the map will allow for better resolution in lower rpms. This helps for drive ability. I would much rather see the area under boost have lower resolution this way it will stay in the area and be solid timing numbers.
I always make so I can control them not the other way around.

You're preaching to the choir here. I guess I'll post up my current timing map. I think it's current anyway. I could have sworn I had less timing in the 170 kPa area, but I guess I didn't have as little as I thought. (Unless the map on my car is newer. I will have to check).



I too took the pressure scale on the left and modified it to fit my needs. I like a lot of resolution in the vacuum section, so I have the pressures go in 10 kPa increments. Then once in boost I start going with 30 kPa increments because I don't need much resolution in boost. I don't go all the way up to 350 kPa either (even though I have a 3.5-Bar MAP sensor).
I haven't scaled the rpm like you have. I didn't find the need to really. I can see why it would be beneficial and I might try it in the future, but since the car idles great and the air/fuel ratios don't have any issues between cells I haven't found much need to modify the rpm scale. (Obviously anything past 8,000 rpm is untuned and stupid retarded on purpose.)

I thought I had 13 degrees of timing at 170 kPa (10 psi) but it looks like I have 16.9 (call it 17) degrees there at torque peak (5,500 rpm). Not sure how you feel about that...
If you see where I am at 100 kPa (0 psi) and where I am at 170 kPa (10 psi) you'll see I'm removing about 1 whole degree for every 1 psi above atmospheric. Honestly, I thought I was removing more. I'm going to double check the map actually loaded in the ECU. It will probably be the same though. =/


Originally Posted by supercowboy
You can always add timing, but when you have too much to start you can have worse failures. You should always data log and see where the timing is moving to. Especially on the street where you dont have much control.
With some ECUs where you don't have total control over the the timing then it makes sense to log it always. I've found there isn't much need with AEM to log timing on a regular basis because it does what you tell it to without doing anything tricky if you know what you're doing. If I'm going to tune timing (instead of fuel) obviously I'd recommend logging it.

I have plenty of logs of my tune I believe with timing logged as well that we could look at if we want. And I can take the car and check timing at high rpm with the timing light if you insist.
Last edited by BenFenner on 2011-04-04 at 21-53-33.
2011-02-11 15:10:29
#48
Originally Posted by supercowboy

I would start my map looking something like this. this is just a generic map.


A tuned map will NEVER look anything like that.

You have almost a 20 degree swing in ignition at one point and that is going to be WAY to low for an AEM.

The way the stock timing table is setup in the stock ECU is overly conservative in the transition portions of the ignition table. There are huge swings in timing all over the place.
2011-02-11 15:33:13
#49
Originally Posted by JKTUNING
A tuned map will NEVER look anything like that.
The map is clearly not even close to usable, and supercowboy said so:
Originally Posted by supercowboy
I would start my map looking something like this. this is just a generic map.



It was just for demonstration purposes to show us the rpm and pressure scaling.





Originally Posted by JKTUNING
You have almost a 20 degree swing in ignition at one point and that is going to be WAY to low for an AEM.
This reads weird to me. Timing is timing. As long as nothing is messing with it, timing for an AEM EMS will be the same as for any other EMS including Mega Squirt, Haltech, Motronic, etc. and any type of a daughter board tune including JWT, Calum, NisTune, etc.
The brand of EMS has nothing to do with what timing is needed.
Last edited by BenFenner on 2011-02-11 at 15-43-07.
2011-02-11 16:05:28
#50
Originally Posted by BenFenner

This reads weird to me. Timing is timing. As long as nothing is messing with it, timing for an AEM EMS will be the same as for any other EMS including Mega Squirt, Haltech, Motronic, etc. and any type of a daughter board tune including JWT, Calum, NisTune, etc.
The brand of EMS has nothing to do with what timing is needed.


If we are talking about actual timing, then sure that is true.

BUT in general the stock ECU has a lot more timing correction/modifiers than the AEM will in standard form OR the corrections are not the same between the two right out of the box.

For example with a Honda, the Actual table timing and the Table timing are two different things! You can have a variance of up to 15 degrees between table and actual timing.

Sorry if I mis-interpreted his wording, saying that "this was where I would start", etc made me think this was something that he would start with in general.
Last edited by JKTUNING on 2011-02-11 at 16-11-33.
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