Thread: stumbled across some interesting oil info today

WOOLUF1952
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2003 GMC Envoy SLT
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The S.A.E. Org. dissagrees with you: Originally Posted by sae.org

"Title: Extended Oil Drain Intervals - Conservation of Resources Or Reduction of Engine Life (Part Ii)"

After reading that you may never change your oil again at even 10,000 miles!

There are millions of miles of oil analysis that not only prove short duration changes increase wear but also result in a lack of additive activation in the motor. If you own a Jiffy Lube then I would expect you to subscribe to the "3,000 mile Mentality" myth.

Oil additives are activated by heat and pressure. Due to the additives having to hold up over time i.e. longer than 10,000 miles the formulations take a certain period of time to become active in protecting the motor. Draining the oil at lets say 3,000 miles simply means the additives have just become active at the point you are draining your oil! In other words you are increasing wear by about 500% doing 3,000 mile drain intervals!

Oils that carry the extended drain ratings such as 506.01, 507.00 etc mean that the additives are formulated to remain active for periods up to 2 years, 40,000 kms or 640 hours of usage. Oils like Mobil 1 0w40 are formulated to withstand 400F sump temps WITHOUT breaking down and losing viscosity. Furthermore the oils cannot break down due to the PAO makeup of the oil. These oils do not rely on elastomers like the conventional oils do. This means that the oil can fully protect your motor at any temperature without the concern of thermal break-down and thinning out of grade.

If you doubt the 10K oil change intervals perform an oil sample at 1,000 miles. Most cars with a fresh sump of oil will peak out at the 1,000 mile mark. After that the wear metals may increase by only 5-10% over the course of 10,000 miles! Nearly 90% of the engine wear occurs in the first 1,000 miles on an oil change! Increasing oil change frequency increases the duration your engine spends in the activation period of the additives and greatly increases the damage in your motor from failing to follow the guidelines of the manufacturer.

Just looking at iron in a VW motor typical readings are around 20-35 ppm after 15,000 miles of use maximum on a motor that has more than 60,000 miles. The oil filter is not capable of filtering this much metal simply because the wear metals are so small they can't be filtered from the oil. Also because there is so little wear metal you do not get wear as a result of the metal being suspended in the oil.

Dispersants require time to bond to the wear metals and byproducts in your engine oil. As byproducts such as soot (gasoline or diesel make soot just different sizes which discolor the oil) are created additives coat them and prevent them from clumping and becoming larger. Typical soot particles in diesel oil are in the nanometer range in terms of size 10 times smaller than what any bypass filter can even capture which is rated at 2 microns absolute. Your oil filter in your motor is rated at capturing particles in the 7 micron range with only a 75% first pass rating...Bottom line is your car would last forever if you change the oil every 20,000 miles and NEVER replace the oil filter simply because your motor is not making enough metal or by-products to ever get captured! Oils especially those for diesels can handle upwards of 8% soot, that my friend is a LOT of soot! To put that in perspective a typical motor after 25,000 miles without an oil change or filter change will only have 1% soot in the oil. This oil will appear tar black yet the oil still has 80% of its rated levels of protection remaining!

Most oils are limited by time in the sump rather than miles due to sulfur in the fuel. Most gasoline motors can safely go 2 years between changes when using quality oils formulated for extended drains such as Mobil 1 0w40 and Truck and SUV 5w40. These oils along with those sold as VOW 506.01 have very high TBN ratings that neutralize acid formation for upwards of two years (1 year in diesels due to higher sulfur content which causes the acids).

Here's the deal, forget the myths about frequent oil changes and basing your perceptions on how the oil looks. The best advice is use a quality oil and drain it at the specified interval. The worst thing you can do to a modern car is over maintain it, yes this is possible due to the very specific regimen that VW engineers figured out to keep your car running at peak performance with maximum durability.

Link?

In regards to my 200SX with 197,000 miles...

3,000 miles is my change interval. When I waited to 4,800 one time, I barely had more than 2 quarts in the engine and it was black as death.

I use PureOne oil filters and Valvoline red bottle Max Life synthetic blend 5w/30 oil.

If this is for new cars, than hooray for you new car owners.

Changing oil more often makes the entire engine more clean. This, is, fact that I have proven with my own vehicle.

Another thing, I can FEEL at around 2200-2300 miles, each and every time that my engine is having more friction to fight to move through that oil. This is me sitting in the car driving it and I can feel it.

I searched for this article "Extended Oil Drain Intervals - Conservation of Resources Or Reduction of Engine Life (Part II)" and it was from 1998.....wow

Most of the people changing their oil out at 3,000 miles don't know much about cars. Personally I don't change my oil out until about 5,000 miles on conventional oil and my engine has minimal to no sludge buildup even after 117k miles. I saw Mobil conventional oil advertised for 10,000 or even 15,000 miles but personally I wouldn't leave conventional oil in my motor that long, I don't care what the experts say.

additives aside, oil still breaks down from sheer force. The oil might still be clean, but it's properties are degraded anyway. Thats why you change it. Whether there's crap in the oil or it's perfectly clean, you need to change it. I'd never let a motor go more than 5k max without an oil change. The oil just isn't the same anymore.

I think this MAY be true for a daily driver meaning completely OEM, the owner has not even thought of modifications to anything on the vehicle.

Now, do i believe we could do this on a VE or DE-T that see's any track use? Probably not, and personally I would not want to run 10k+ miles on the same oil in any modified car. How insignificant are the wear differences that there are engines, example: my moms outback at 230k and still running strong, still running with no major defects that stuck to the 3k mile rule

Yeah, sure thing. I don't know much about cars. ROFL

Anyway....

Heat and pressure kill oil and will do so until the Earth no longer rotates and these fluids are no longer present.

Warm oil will clean off particles from the interior of a warm engine.

You can take a dirty engine and if you change the oil and filter often enough, let's say every 1,000 miles, that engine will get cleaner on the inside. I know this, for fact. I have done it before. That, alone, is proof to myself that this guy is possibly retarded and the cited article is from 1998 and authored by the brains of all the AMG Dept.

Some of what that guy said is confusing to me.

Oil filters usually rate by how small and how effectively they can filter out certain particles at certain sizes. The amount of passes has nothing to do with it. (Like this guy claims)

Looking at iron is pointless (at least for SR20 people because the engine is aluminum) so this VW example does not help the cause, either.

Why is it, either every oil change, that filter weighs considerably more than the one that I am opening up brand new, out of the box? Because that filter is doing it's job and cleaning (filtering) the oil (and at every 3,000 miles that, too, is replaced)

You ever see cooking oil that is anywhere near the color of engine oil after 3,000---fuck it---2,000 miles??? No, you do not. Dirty oil is bad oil, period. No matter what application.

You do not run a gun with dirty oil, it may fail to function or even be damaged if you run it too long with dirty oil, as well!

On the SR20 it will go 3,000 - 7,500 miles on full synthetic no problem. Oil is fine and levels are good with no refilling. It's sort of up to you.

On the 2.0L VW engine attempting an extended oil change interval like 5,000 miles on full synthetic is engine suicide. Sludge city and 2 liters down (if you avoid topping off) on a healthy engine.

Engines vary.

I can kind of see this on very new cars, but on older cars the piston rings wont be top notch. The fuel will get into the oil, this is bad, will post a link when i get on a reap computer.