Thread: Toyota FT-86 / Subaru BRZ: Japanese (not Siamese) Twins

Shut up, BenFen. :P It will be a fun car, why so pessimistic? If you want to sell cars, ya gotta offer auto and manual to the masses. Unfortunately, the name of the game is to move units and not become palpable within only the "driver's crowd".

Next, who cares about whatever engine amplifier you are talking about. Maybe we can remove it for more weight gains up front to better increase the weight distribution.

Next, fuck a sunroof. Structural integrity and long live the beast > sunroof. (plus internets if you can get that reference)

Finally, when or where does Lotus enter this equation? Because they also make lightweight cars that are agile? Lotus Elise MSRP was just over 50k. This is half that price.

The same negative lip service can be applied to your negative logic, either way, until we start test driving it or just buying it, isn't ALL of it lip service or just basic opine being spilled over the forum or internet, or whatever source of news.

Drive it and see what happens. I am still more excited about this car than what most have in a long time, maybe it is being over hyped, maybe it will just be a fun car. Maybe I am defending it or maybe I believe it deserves a chance more than reading what other people think about it and investigate when we can. Either way, I am looking forward to it .

Maybe they are saving room for performance variants that will be manual transmission only, and remove some sound deadening instead of piping in sound. I'm not holding my breath.

Lotus actually does make driver's cars. You'll have a hard time finding extraneous shit tacked on that hinders the driving experience. That's how they fit into this. How many automatic transmission Elise's have you seen?

I'm not hating on the car. I think it's great. I just think all the recent copy on it being a driver's car is bologna. You kind of loose your credibility as an automotive journalist when you say shit like that. Toyota is really pouring that kool-aid on this one.

How many RWD sub 30k brand new money Lotus' have you seen? (insert rolling eyes) haha, usually your points are well, on point, but too much bologna has you spinning.

Go get a clown shoe coupe, there is one near my house that barely ever moves. Want me to ask the guy if it is for sale?

I don't think you'll find any new production, driver's cars for under $30k. They are worth more than that. People will pay out the ass for a proper driver's car and their prices reflect that. Toyota is sure not going to deliver one that I can see. They may get close, which is all we can hope for. Just save the "driver's car" accolades for cars that deserve it. That's all I'm saying.

BMW does it in the M5 by means of stereo. They also have it on the Z4. Don't they claim to be driver's cars? Ford pipes Mustang engine noise into the cabin as well as Hyundai and damn near every other automaker now out there in the market. (LEXUS LFA anyone? Or how about Jaguar XFR?)

With regulations getting more serious, automakers are looking for other ways to keep the driver "connected" to the car. So your point is moot.

PS - When lotus starts piping engine noise? How about this: They (Lotus Engineering) are one of the companies that patented this process of piping engine noise into the cabin via tube or stereo... So you may want to do more research. You know their latest concept Hybrid uses this technology. I guess you could say pigs will soon fly?

HALOsonic - Noise Management Solutions

PPS - McLaren MP4-12C...

"
While the biturbo exhaust sound of the MP4-12C doesn't make us cry from happiness, there's always the sport exhaust option. And, in any case, just switch the P cluster to Track mode and a resonance tube from the intake plenum pipes more sound into the cabin."

Another incredibly rediculous "Driver's Car" option.

I could go on all day, but I'm going to stop beating a dead horse here.

Once you start putting automated manuals or whatever the hell in BMWs then you no longer have a driver's car. They can claim to be driver's cars all day long just like Toyota does, but they are not. Nor is a Mustang a driver's car. You can't be serious? Live rear axle anyone?

Lexus LFA, no manual transmission. None. Not even an option.
McLaren MP4-12C, same thing. Not a driver's car.
Jaguar XFR? A driver's car? Are you serious?

As for regulations... What regulation exists that says you have to employ gobs of sound deadening on the firewall to block out engine noise? That you then have to by-pass with piped in sound?
You're adding weight to block sound, then adding more weight and complexity to bring it back in. I understand why they do it, but that doesn't make it not undesirable in a driver's car. Yes, cars are getting less and less involving and entertaining for the driver. This is news? I wouldn't be surprised if no major car producer ever made another driver's car again.

When Lotus starts piping in sound, they will no longer be driver's cars. Same as a Porsche Cayenne is not a driver's car (but a 911 RS is).


You could claim the FR-S/BRZ are the closest thing under $50k that resembles a driver's car produced today (if you completely forget the Miata exists). Sure. But claiming it as an actual driver's car is too much of a stretch for me to stomach.

Please elaborate on 911 RS. IF you're referring to a true 911, and not a 911 (996/997/whatever stupid Porsche keeps changing the nomenclature to), then you're talking about a car manufactured some 20+ years ago.

If you're referring to a recent year "911" RS, Porsche now has a plastic resin "divider" that allows engine sounds into the cabin, so I don't honestly see how that's so much different? Rather than seal off the engine bay from the cabin, they're allowing sounds into the cabin using a plastic window.

PS - Your definition of "Driver's Car" isn't the definition shared with many folks anymore.

Yes, it does seem to be that people have moved the goal posts for what qualifies as a driver's car in my opinion. That's for sure.

With the plastic sound window, it is this simple.

Does it add complexity/weight, sacrifice chassis rigidity? If so, how much?

Does it add to the driving involvement and enjoyment? If so, is it worth the penalty to weight, simplicity and handling?

A plastic window sounds WAY simpler than the piped diaphragms used by Ford and the rest. It sounds like there's likely no loss in rigidity. Taking a section of firewall that would otherwise be metal covered in heavy sound deadening and replacing it with a plastic diaphragm sounds like a weight saving measure if I've ever seen one. Yes, no doubt it adds to the cost of things, but so does aluminum over steel, etc. Driver's cars aren't cheap to build.

I'm not defending Porsche. Maybe the car would be better for driver enjoyment without the plastic diaphragm. If so, it doesn't qualify either.