Thread: Thoughts on a full race motor setup (Turbo Posts)

why spend so much money on a a turbo like that when you'll get smoked by someone with half the turbo?


i've used 3 different Protech manifolds and will use no other. i will post later tonight a pic of my 524 whp manifold...you'll be very surprised. i will also post my 1003 whp Protech manifold

ca18 bluebird, Is there a reason why you are running such short runners with that turbo manifold? You are loosing all the power gain from the resonance of the tuned runner length. You are letting the pressure wave from the intake valve closing leave the intake runner. this will cause a very poor cylinder fill when in the large cam lobe. A forced induction and N/A motor both use the same Tuned length resonance to help cylinder fill and take advantage of overlap scavenging. This does not change with boost. You may possibly gain overall flow by loosing the runner length because of the manifold design and thus will help cylinder fill, but you are actually loosing power and most likely spool in the midrange. I see a lot of Turbo people, Honda, Nissan, toyota do the cut-off, short runner intake manifolds because they think they are making a huge gain in power, but in reality they are only gaining top end power and actually loosing more everywhere else. I'm not sure how fast you are building boost but a GT30R .63 housing on a properly setup engine should make 1bar boost and 300lb ft TQ by 4000-4200rpm no problem. I have seen a lot of setups ( all makes here) with a .63 GT30R spool very late, closer to 5000rpm or later because of parts on their motor that they "think" is making more power but it is not. Many people just bolt parts onto their motor thinking its the best setup.

the 3 highest HP DET/VET setups I have seen all used factory Intake manifolds. Ported, reworked or indifferent, these motors all made 600+whp and 450+tq at "low" boost levels. 2 of these motors actually made more power than similar K/B series honda setups with similar parts, same turbo and displacement.

SERacer, are you asking about the ignition timing? or do you want more info in general on that subject? I can tell you that a few of the 2.0L motors with the correct cam timing and header design use about 24-25 deg advance at 8000rpm and these motors can generally be ran on 87 octane with no changes, except a loss in power, but no detonation. These make about 156-158tq at the wheels

Its crazy cuz i can remember back in the day when log mani's were the shi$, mainly because noone really had any decent tubulars out yet, haha. No tubular is the way to go. With my T28 setup on a rwd tubular mani the turbo spool and power was soo much better than a buddies with a stock det manifold. But either way i went with a log mani for now being i got it with the whole kit for cheap.

If it doesnt make the power i want and causes problems ill look right away into getting a nice tubular mani for one to be safe on the motor and make the power i want safely. Protech's work is second to basicly none. His mani's are awesome, now if only we could get him to make us some n/a race headers. Im sure if he can do mani's like that for turbo how hard would it be for him to do a nice full out race header, big primaries. 3" collector, 3" all the way after. Wonder if thats ever been brought up to him at all.

Neways ill see what happens and if im not happy then ill ditch the log mani. But again for the power i want to make i think i can hit my mark and still be well within a large safety margin. Ill probably just take out some overlap on the cams, im thinking -5,+5 or so on the stock 20ve cams will do the trick and help with the issue on that.

I would definitely have to disagree with that statement. Besides making easy power by slapping on a turbo, the whole point is to make power efficiently. I'd rather have a motor making enormous power on low boost than having to pump up the boost to make the same amount of power to compensate. Why over stress a motor?



Instead of answering your problems by slapping on a bigger turbo, I'd figure out a way to make more power with the same turbo efficiently. Seems to me you are willing to risk efficiency for more power...seems as a waste of money IMHO.




True statement. I have friends that have made over close to 500 whp on pump 93 gas...all day long.


Actually, it was 523 whp with 409 wtq and 23 psi of boost.



I made 390ish on pump at 14 psi on 22* of timing and the 524 whp was on 18* of timing; relatively conservative.


Maybe from where you are located, but down here, those motors are used and abused and keep running. The K20 is very strong.


1. The SC61 I ran was the smallest SC61 that is available at the time (Stage 5 rear wheel and E- comp housing). IIRC, the SC61 I was running was just a tad bit smaller than a true GT35R.

2. At 10 psi, IIRC, I made about 320-330 whp. With the "smaller" turbo you are running, you should have made more power since the SC61 is nowhere near its efficiency. My UEL manifold is not going to make that big of a difference at such low boost compared to your log. As a matter of fact, before I ran the Protech UEL, I ran a crackhead RevHard manifold (pretty much log) made for a DE with exhaust leak and all and made 307 whp at 10 psi.

Not completely all that laggy...BB rulez! Not too mention he was also running a LoveFab 23" long EL manifold made for a DE. The car felt great.


Yes Sir!

This was my 523 whp manifold from Protech...very simple & humble:



My new manifold:

Coheed, you get Bruce at Protech to make this manifold for you. You dont need anything more than this.

Turbo sits up top. Easy manifold and turbo to install and you get individual runner flow

I love this thread.

Someone made the comment that efficiency over boost...why stress the motor?... 8500rpm is more stress than my 16psi at 7500rpm. I will put the new mani on and see what happens. Then I will test with the 20ve cams and see what happens. As long as I can keep the powerband around 6500rpm and leveling off by 7500rpm I will be happy. I don't like the really high strung motors, and right now my powerband is a little too peaky for my taste. On 16psi power is still climbing when I hit the rev limiter. What I want is a broad, and violent powerband. I hate tires.

Who took it to 85oo RPMs? I let go after 75oo RPMs on my cluster which is actually 78oo RPMs. If you study my dyno sheet, my car has a very broad & solid powerband. From 48oo RPMs to 78oo RPMs, the motor is making some great power. That is 400 wtq for 3K RPMs; very consistant.

That shorty turbo manifold is very nice. Simple, compact and individual flow which is much better than a log. If that manifold is $600 then thats a steal for what you get. The only thing i'd dislike about that is the Wastegate placement. Your best placement is for the Wastegate to dump the exhaust gasses in the same or similar direction as the exhaust flows into the turbine housing. I do understand though that the placement is because of fitment in the vehicle to clear the radiator and by seeing SE-Rawkus' dyno sheet, it seems very well that it works.

Coheed, stress from a lot of boost and stress from higher RPMs are 2 different things. making 450whp from 24psi means you are retaining a lot more heat in the motor than say 500whp at 15psi because of backpressure and not being able to flow the gasses out. However, I do agree that with RPM's comes more stress and wear n' tear but there are a lot of factors that can effect that. The largest factor ofcourse is piston speed. a 200whp sr16ve motor at 10,500rpm will last longer than a 8,500rpm SR20VE motor because of piston speed, R/S ratio, Friction on the reciprocating assembly and on the crank, and the smaller motor is going to produce less heat than the larger one for the same power output. RPMS do stress the Rods more than boost will, that is why a Honda K20 motor ( mainly the early ones) will break the rods in half if mis shifted above say 9500-9800rpms for the early motors but they will take 20psi boost no problem if you keep the rev's below 8000rpms. I"m not sure how long it will take that abuse but they do for short periods of time.

Coheed, I think if you get even one of those shorty turbo manifolds as SE-Rawkus used and spend some time on the dyno dialing your cams in you should see close to 500whp no problem at the same or less boost.

SE-Rawkus and Coheed, you should try a .82 divided T3 turbine housing turbo setup. If you build it out of the 1 1/4" Schedule 10 pipe, you will have a very very nice power band, Divided turbine housings work very well.

Back to the NA topic, I do want to get more into the development of the sr20ve motor more as the honda and toyota stuff is getting kinda boring... same parts, same motors same stuff nothing super cool... I think that some of you should do some 2.3-2.4L motor builds and get some good solid head work done and have it all ready for some big cams when they finally come out. I was pointed to a company called mazworx and i see they have a nice head gasket that looks very strong similar to the Greddy and Apex ones. There are also some simple easy piston and con rod tweaks you can do to make a lot more power instead of just cams and port work.

Generally a set of custom one off set made pistons for $700 can make as much as 10-20whp over a set of "shelf" pistons.

-Ted

I thought you were refering to the K20. My friend is currently running to 8500rpm and 7psi of boost. He makes under 300whp. Even tuned, just can't get any more than that out of it without the CEL coming on for knock. I wish our cars did that!

I will be running ATP's divided .78 housing on the manifold being made. I am also having an exhaust cutout put on the car so that I get better flow with less backpressure. Your motor was the whole reason I went VE-T in the first place. You could say that you are my idol in a way

Mrslappy, I like you. Thanks for contributing to the thread.

lol, your funny coheed, haha.

Neways that short runner tubular is a hell of a nice manifold. For one it does the job, it looks great and im sure it makes alot more power than a log. Ill have to do some before and after testing when i put the kit on with the log mani vs a tubular later down the road especially if i dont make the numbers i want.