Thread: Air 2 Water Heat Exchangers

In my opinion more water is always better if you have room for it. Especially for a roadrace car, or a street car. If its a drag only car you dont need much because you are only running it for short periods of time and can empty it out or add ice between runs. I was planning on getting a 5 gallon fuel cell for my old system, which would have brought the total system volume to 7gallons. Just put a large res. in the trunk. I basically filled it up and drove, i checked the water every couple of weeks and changed it every few months or when ever i was at the track and added ice.

I agree with wnwright in the only major downside to water is the fact of once it becomes heat soaked it takes a long time to recover and become cool again. AKA stuck in traffic with little to no actual air moving over the heat exchanger besides the hot air/exhaust of the car in front of you which your fan is trying to use to cool the water. Which this situation always happens on very hot days, for me anyway. If you have a good amount of water this isnt a huge factor.

There is a company that has air to air units with bungs on them for running c02 or n20, I wouldnt see why one of those couldnt work. I am not sure without actually having one in front of me though. The company if i remember correctly is s-max or somthing like that and they have a pretty nice cool can as well which could be utalized with a block of ice or possibly dry ice.(without water) Summit racing and jegs also has cool cans which are usually used for fuel, but i dont see why you couldnt add one of those with ice, or dry ice as well as a heat exchanger, and res. to further aid in cooling when at the track.

The stock cars have decent systems but i would bet if you even added a gallon to one of their systems it would help out a great deal. The newer celica all tracs also had a water to air intercooler as well as some of the t birds.

Coheed, The only thing i would worry about with your set up is the amount of power you are putting down. I would think a stock like heat exchanger would be way too much of a restriction to try and flow however much boost you are slamming through it. I would get one of the larger spearco or precision turbo units or an ebay one your choice, run one of the larger ebay heat exchangers in the location where your a/c codensor was, put your fans on that and run a large res 5+ gal res in the trunk, and a good pump. With the large res you could put alot of ice in at the strip or when ever you go racing and have awesome air intake temps. If you make your set up similar to coaches old one or the one i had you will have verly little intercooler piping which should also aid in response. These are just my recommendations from my experiences and also a friend of mine with a s/c and water to air set up on a 600whp porsche 928. He wishes he could fit a large heat exchanger in the front of his car. Its hard to squeeze a fart into that engine bay let alone anything on top of whats already in there.

Blairellis, that looks like a ford truck trans. cooler if i am not mistaken. Some of the focuses also had a similar unit which was smaller. I did alot of poking around at the local junkyards trying to find coolers. One thing i was looking at was some of the larger motorcycle radiators, or any powersport radiator. Some of those could also be had cheap and sould work pretty well.

Just my .02

I will be running the frozenboost kit for 600hp, with the reservior. the heat exchanger is 24X12X1. It will go in the factory condensor mounting area. I will be carrying about 3-4 gallons of water with water wetter.

I was looking into one of those barrel style coolers and they want way way too much money for that. There is no way the core could cost what they want, and it is not worth it imho. $800 for a core to support 600hp? Get real.

I like the frozenboost kit, and I plan on proving that an A/W setup will outperform an A/A setup in every condition, as I plan on tracking this car in the future. The new ZR1 has an a/w setup and it doesn't experience the heat soaking problems that guys claim to have.

At low speeds, you aren't building boost most the time, and at higher speeds the a/w setup should provide more cooling air to the radiator and still cool the intake air more effectively. Everyone knows that a/w is way more efficient when done right. I am confident this kit will work well, and it won't bottom out when I go over speed bumps.

Now keep in mind that I do not have any actual experience with the way these systems work on the road/track, but it seems to me that a properly designed evaporative injection system might be able to outperform an air to water (as far as cooling goes).

You also do not need to worry about heat soaking and could probably get away with a less restrictive exchanger? Only downside is the consumption of liquid.

Just some random thoughts, no real reason.

How does it tend to compare, for those who have used both?

Sounds like it should be a good system. I agree, a 4" thick intercooler, especially bar and plate will block alot more air to the radiator, than a 1" thick heat exchanger. Its always a good thing not to bottom out the i/c or piping. LOL

Well here is what my research has led me to understand:

I understand the "frozen system", or one like it listed on the old forum, uses the cars A/C system to feed SUVA R-134 through the cooler and is $800.00, without the plumbing.

Then you have the weight problems of leaving that retarded A/C brick , causing your suspension to become a problem to balance, on FWD cars.

You'll need to re-design the a/c plumbing, so you can by-pass the cabin a/c, and use the ACIC, with a rather pricey a/c HP switch/valve and constant thermal control. (Or it may freeze the IC and crack! This is one of those things, where you might need to return the ac back to the cabin, in case your IC freezes solid, should the thermal switch get stuck OPEN. Now you need a normally closed ac valve, running off suction. More headaches.)

Such a system, made from aluminum, and not copper, bronze and/or brass, is much more likely to degenerate at an alarming rate and would require the dryer to be changed/serviced often ($), as R-134 is corrosive and runs at High Pressure. (You can cheat and use under-sized lines, and allow the compressor to build higher pressures, so the a/c runs at more efficiency, but it wears out the compressor seals twice as fast. It also allows the compressor to run a bunch less, so your parasitic loss, is minimized


If your R-134 a/c lines are 12mm, use 10mm, or 8mm, to the frozen system. The expansion/efficiency, will be greatly increased, and cause ice to freeze within the cooler and all over the lines, when your trigger in your ecu sends signal to the second stage of your 2 speed a/c compressor. Complicated, yes. But very efficient. The problem is the corrosion factor, within an $800 Frozen Aluminum system, every year! If it is not copper, you are wasting your money, for a SUVA R-134 system, in my opinion. If the aluminum core is so expensive, how much is the copper unit, you really want, for max efficiency?

Check the major aluminum racing radiator manufacturers, they all recommend changing EVERY YEAR. Aluminum is light, but it becomes brittle and hates corrosion from a/c acid.

If you use ammonia in your ac compressor, (which may be illegal), your seals and compressor ratio will make a much smaller Mini-Toyota style compressor system last much longer, without the same Ph/acid ratio, nor pressures, as R-134. You'll need to make a custom bracket and if you spring a leak, you could die, under the hood tuning. Then you may need nitrile ammonia rated seals, so your re-building of a brand new Mini-A/C compressor is required, to run HP ammonia.

When you consider the variables, a true frozen unit, is not practical, until you get over 1500 HP., so you can compensate the parasitic loss, compared to the weight and suspension in-equality, over the front end versus the cost of detonation, on major titanium parts investment, of a Big Block or Hemi. Best used for your formula race cars and mission critical systems, not our cars, (unless you have an auto-manufacturer sponsor, and a show contract backing). Lol!

I bought the larger Jegs Aluminum Water I/C unit, with the smaller Jegs black bottle and the 3 inch H20IC ports, facing the same side, after speaking with another forum member, (with photos), who uses the same system very efficiently and effectively. It fits high, over the top, where the battery used to be, close to the fender as possible, so the ignition system and air in-take still plumb through the front-end, down through the fender and sucking air through the front grill, to a plenum box with a shirt-screen larger than the intake tubing, in the box transition.

Subscribed to mass-air flow theory, of the full 3 inch system, being much more efficient over the range of temperatures. More mass = volumetric efficiency, so the larger unit, although it is a boat anchor, works better for high HP and a wider thermodynamic efficiency.

The guy I asked about the exact same system, ran a 2.5"-3" inch elbow/reducer, directly from the log T3/04SE turbo, to the fat aluminum version h2o/air IC, right over the right wheel-well, where the battery used to sit. It is a short trip, if you imagine how close the turbo outlet is, to this area. A small section of tubing between elbows, and you are home free to the H20IC in. (You do not need a MAF, as the AEM uses Map pressure).

Then (using the same-sided in/out water IC unit, that I chose), you use 2 @ 3 inch 45 degree elbows, directly into your inlet of the H20IC. Then use a 22 degree elbow, to your TB, from the other port, (nearer to your TB), so from the turbo in-take, to your TB is less than 2 feet, with much more cooling capacity, as has been repeatedly stated, over the stealth unit. Less soak, more room for air, etc. This shorter run, will mean less lost suction, and exposure to the front end radiator and exhaust systems, which nearly all AIC systems need protection/suffer from.

The Black Bosch H20 pump works well and is only $100.00 on ebay.

Spend your money on quality insulated lines, and an insulated cooler, over the opposite side of your battery box, in the trunk, as Coach has suggested.

*If you search for "Tiger Foam", (made in the good old USA, here in NJ), you'll find it is rated structurally and comes in the same size bottles, as your gas-grill, with a sprayer nozzle and short hose.

This crap is tough and once you mount/locate your squatty 5 gal. bucket, just spray all around everything in the trunk, so it never moves or shifts, under load and insulates your bucket. It is terrific for sealing your fender wells, so they can take a hit, without damages. It also can be used to foam around air ventilation pvc duct-pipes, with fans, to and from your brakes, under the bodywork. It carves nicely, to any shape and is solid, when it dries. Put the fans on a switch and use them when you stop, to cool your rotors, between runs. They free-float, when off, and allow air to be directed to your brakes nicely.

Cut a few PVC egg-crate style 5-gallon bucket-baffles, drilled with lots of small holes, so the water slosh does not effect your launch. Water wetter works here to and reduces pump wear, if my recollection serves me right. Teflon lines, are smoother and thus flow more efficient flow-rates, over rubber hose.

Black insulated micro-foam A/C plumbing wrap, can be had at Home depot, and will insulate the "send" H2o lines nicely, with zip-ties and super-glue as sealant, over your plumbing. Hell, garden hose will work, with the correct fittings and a home made bucket, but the Jegs bottle is race-rated.

Tiger Foam is designed for aviation stiffening and thermal protection, so wear a mask. Not sure what the safety risk is, so read up on the contents, at the site, yourself.

Might be a great group-buy, if there is enough interest. PM me, if you think we should look into buying a few canisters. I can get an account there easily and would like to buy a bottle myself, if anyone is interested, let me know.



Just shoot the lines and everything, all the way through the car. Stuff your doors and panels with the crap too. If I am not mistaken, it is electrostatic rated, so the wiring can be protected, as well. Now you have impact rated door panels and fenders. Not as good as air-bags, but not too heavy and much safer, under "accidental" impact.

The real issue is, as you get closer to 500 HP, the decisions you make now, come back to haunt you later, if you go with low-profile and then wish you had made the required purchase of the larger 3 inch water system, your stuck. As has been stated, the addition of a squirt of Alcohol, to control detonation and increase HP, your going to wish you bought the boat anchor, 3 inch H20IC.

Pure alcohol is good for 120 hp! Use it 50/50 and you'll need the extra cooling efficiency, to keep up. Now the mass of the larger H20IC, and Coaches 5 gal. bucket, makes a significant difference. The cool-looking stream-lined unit, looks great, no doubt, but lets face it, the capacity will limit your alcoholic-injection, and where's the fun in that? Detonation will be controlled, and thermal conditions will be much better to tune, for consistency, with the larger IC, at lower boost, as the alcohol takes over, (and twin injectors), instead of turbo-boost pressure, at high rpm.

Blair, like Coach said, you are on the right track, just use the 5 gal. bucket and use the smaller Jegs bottle, (Aluminum or plastic), for the h20/Alcohol injection system If you are running an AEM, you'll be able to set the standalone, to automatically sense when/if, you run out of alcohol, switching your engine to another safe program, IF you place a sensor, that reads the Jegs smaller tank volume, BEFORE it is empty!. Hopefully, about three seconds before you run out of squirt, at WOT, your ECU will switch your program over, saving your engine! (see following post for part number).

Then your 4 inch DP can breath and the 3 inch exhaust will be worth the investment, so long as you have two 4-wire 02 sensors and proper grounding.

Sounds as if we are assembling, nearly the same turbo monster, however I am not going with dual injection, at this point.

I still have a picture of this larger H20IC unit, mounted in the other guys car, from log, to TB, really sweet, in under 2 feet of runner. If you PM me, I'll send you pics installed. Not show-pretty, as the smaller unit, but very efficient and head-room for more squirt.

BTW, where my Air inter-cooler would be normally be mounted, will be a 17"x24" Nascar oil-cooler, with -an12>-an10 fittings, to twin oil filters and a thermal bypass oil-switch, (for cold-starts) and then onto the new-style the CS oil block. It is thin, but as wide as the super-sized AIC, many guys use, so from the front, you'll see what appears to be, a regular AIC.

Again, by using increased capacity, from -an10 oil lines, to the Nascar's -an12 fittings, in my super-sized oil-cooler, I get the oil to slow, while in the cooler, at an increase of volume/expansion, for better cooling efficiency, in exact opposite of shrinking the A/C lines, for the frozen systems using A/C.

Oil / Water / Air cylinder-sleeve temps, play an increasing factor, when you are looking to manage / control the thermal temperatures, from all angles; inside AND outside of the cylinder walls and at the pistons/rings, due to expansion. This expansion happens, at different ratios, if you ignore the entire chamber conditions.

IMHO, Oil temp control ignored, makes this mod nearly worthless. That is why it is cheaper to use traditional CAI. (And why Nascars use a complex $ oil heater Can, to keep the engine's thermal control in constant check). Then again, they run dry sump, adding to cost, in order to keep thermal conditions constant, as stated above.

*If the cylinder walls are cooled on the in-side, by mist and water /air cooler, then the oil MUST also be heated/cooled, properly, on the outer cylinder-walls, or you'll fry the rings, when the cooler air, hits over-heated oil, and your rings will bind, burn and break. Balance of these issues is no easy matter and why strictly controlling air temp, even with water injection, is not enough to properly control expansion, unless you prevent frying oil and/or complex expansion ratios of the cylinder sleeves.

Especially if you haven't calculated the proper expansion/temp range, when you bored and filed your seal-tight rings and allowed for expansion, within the cylinder bore, so as to meet your expected range of expansion, at temperature. Coatings, Coatings and more Thermal Piston Coatings.

How did I do Coach?

With the latent heat of vaporization for water, there is a tremendous cooling effect when water evaporates. Each gram of water absorbs about 540 calories of energy from the surrounding air in order to make the transformation from a liquid to a gas. This is called enthalpy of transformation. You wouldn't even need an intercooler if you had a nice water injection kit. Meth/water is even more effective as an octane booster.

a 50/50 mix of water meth will make a 91 octane fuel act like 114, and a 93 ocane as high as 118!

Your car AC system works the same way with your refrigerant. The compressor compresses the 134a/R12 and changes it to a liquid, then sprays it into your AC evaporator. As the air passes through the AC evaporator on its way to your vents, the refrigerant pulls heat out of the air when changing from a liquid vapor to a gas. Cool huh?

Your body is designed to sweat to release heat from the body. As the sweat evaporates from your skin it pulls 540cal of energy for each gram of water that evaporates. If you can increase the rate of evaporization you can increase the amount of heat transfered. Having a nice hot intake charge helps with this.

What would you guys say if I told you I am doing BOTH?

I have just received a brochure for a brand-new high quality optical dead-man fluid sensor, which runs at .01-5v. This lil gem can read fluid, in stages, @ pressure, on a gauge or LED, as the fluid and/or pressure drops. Depending on which one you order.

http://www.fluidswitch.com/pages/Optical-Liquid-Level-Sensors.htm

It reads liquid, via a see-through, bung mounted weld-on, (or just thread into the plastic Jegs Alcohol/methanol canister and seal it with marine goop).

The sensor is 2-4 wire, variable ratio or simple on/off, and can be ordered "normally open, or closed", with or without pressure switch. When the fluid drops, whether it is oil or water or Meth/alcohol, the sender switches the ECU to another program, if you program it to do so, before you run out of Alcohol / Methanol, at the reservoir.

It can be programmed to kill your ignition, in case of catastrophic oil-pressure/level failure, or be used to regulate your usage, of the ratio/mix, in stages, using proportioning valves and a digital controller, (like an AEM ecu). Every turbo oil-feed line, should have one of these on the return to the block, with a pressure sensor/kill switch, IMHO.

This is cheap insurance, in order to prevent failure and thermal destruction, caused by fluid-loss, pressure-loss or low fluid levels, while cornering, which can kill your flow ratio expectations and fry your turbo charger.

We could use a group-buy on these too.

Anyone need fluid sensors, for injection:boost v. octane level safety?

I'll call for pricing, if anyone is interested.

This one fits and works within the space we have over the right wheel-well.
It needs a blanket/insulation, if you want to keep it cool. A condensation drip-pan would be in order, as well.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=water+intercooler&x=0&y=0&N=700+115&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1

TNT-2-276 - summitracing.com

I found one used, for $350, with fittings and the small Jegs can, or I would not be buying this unit. Man, they want a fortune for it now!

True, however you would have significant troubles running anywhere close to 75-80% Meth or alcohol, (most likely not more than 50-50 ratio), without cooling the intake air substantially, first. Not on a hot day, with variable humidity. Not accurately.



Yes, however; can you go to higher octane, without constant/positive heat/friction control, from both the inner and outer cylinder walls? I D N T S.
Not unless you re-establish piston / rign tolerances, of the bore, seasonally.
Summer tolerances, will not work as well as winter piston/ring expansion ratios. Unless you control oil temperatures consistently.



That is my point exactly. A good clean water IC system, with safe-guards and sensors, (a bit of special sensors), you should be able to control the variables, and run much higher octane, if you manage both air and injection stabilizers, while increasing octane and HP, significantly.

If it is cold, then you can shoot the hell out the engine with Meth or alcohol, at a higher %.
If it is warm, you have the H20IC system, to significantly lower the average air-intake ratio, basing the alcohol:water ratio, using barometric sensors, to properly set your mix and the amount of air/oil cooling required, in order to remain consistent, without blowing the engine.

Now you need four ETG sensors, one for each cylinder.

You would desire both systems, if you are messing with such high octane, when the weather can change +-20 degrees, or the humidity changes, half-way through the day, in an afternoon at the track. Especially as MAP does not measure barometric pressure, in order to set the algorithm.

(that is why you may want a few extra Meth/alcohol canisters, so you can swap out for different ratios of mixtures, after KNOWING you weather conditions, and exact barometric pressure).
Now you are a weather man! Summit sells these units too.

You still must really do the math, in order to run at such close ratios, or the expense of the learning-curve will beat you and your engine up, fast.

An active race-barometer is the only real solution, in order to map and stage these systems properly, based upon weather conditions, at altitude. I suppose one may even mix the ratio of Meth/alcohol, using this type of weather computer, built into the AEM, if one can build a base-map, for the injection stages at different mixes; using two separate canisters of water and meth/alcohol. Just program the ECU to read the weather computer, and adjust your mix ratio, and your in business.

Active barometric injection, with H20IC and oil thermal control. Simple!

I've actually never heard of using the AC system for intercooling. Awesome idea, but unfortunately I am 90% sure ammonia is illegal, so you'd be stuck with other refrigerants. Not to mention ammonia is not the safest one to be messing with.

You might have to redesign the lines or change the compressor to use it anyways, depending on it's properties.

Edit: Haha just noticed he already said that. Whoops.