Thread: How many interested in a new high end coil over at a good price?

First off, this is the second time you've basically called our community ignorant when it comes to suspension design. I understand, as best I can tell you seem to be used to servicing Daewoo customers with your "high end" suspension setups. However, this treatment stops now. Even if we end up being ignorant in the end, we are not going to respond well if treated as such. At the very least, we like to learn.

If we get there eventually, I'm sure a few of us (myself included) would be willing to help you out here. However, it seems pointless right now as it seems you will never acquiesce to showing us real dyno results. This means we could tell you what we want, and you could tell us that's what you'll offer (or whatever), but we will never know. And we are not going to take your word for it.

There are a few, key aspects to the B13 and B14 chassis that make them difficult to design for, and they can not be treated as similar to the N15/N16 chassis. Treat them similarly at your own peril. You saying they are "the same" has not won over anyone yet.

Lets calm down first, I am not calling anyone ignorant.
The fact is as soon as you make something public knowledge in one forum, it will spread across to many.
And I have came across many members that will use any information posted and twist the truth…
To what purpose I have no clue, but sometime you can pick flaw from something that isn't a flaw to begin with, especially with suspension dyno which normally is a "snap shot" of what the damper is doing.

One of the main reason I am here is I am also trying to understand the enthusiast community in the US, as I am sure it will be different from the UK so I am trying to get a "feel" for what is wanted.
I will have a talk with my engineers and see if we can work our way around to posting up some general dyno.
The only problem is our dyno is Italian, which mean it doesn't save anything digitally, don't like printing colour, and all language is in Italian… A great dyno but not very good if you are trying to save material.
I will probably need to rent something a bit more common like a Roehrig dyno.
Either way, it is something for me to think about so that isn't a problem.

The reason I ask what you want to see on the dyno and why is because I am trying to understand the "goal" you are trying to achieve.
Some people like a very square setup and I think that is fine, but that doesn't make for a very comfortable road car and that could be a problem for owners who are looking for a good daily driver.
I am just trying understand what the community is after and why.

As for as suspension for the B13 / B14 etc… All I know is the suspension mounting point is "possibly" the same.
Personally I haven't work on a B13 / B14… so chance are I will need to get some data on the car before I can specify all the bits.
Things like corner weight, motion ratio, etc so I can work out what wheel frequency will work on the car, etc.
Also what are the average ride height preference of the community, because if everyone like their car at standard ride height, then I can design a suspension with more travel than one that are design to slam the car.

Again, at this moment I am just having a friendly debate… I do not have anything for the B chassis but it is something we can build.
It is more of talking to the community and see what type of approach we should take.

Jerrick

maybe it's just a translation issue, but you are talking friction correct?

Yes, you are correct, it is CoF (don't know why I say drag).

Teflon PTFE Bronze filled: COF 0.13u, Tensile Strength 23-28 MPa
Our new material: COF 0.05u, Tensile Strength 65 MPa

It is a pretty sexy material and significantly drop stiction.

Jerrick

This is what I'm talking about:












First and foremost, we are trying to see the general quality of the damper. A dyno with a few measurements from low to high speed and data points for all 32 adjustment points will show us if the adjustment mainly works for compression, or for extension. It will show us if the damper favors compression or extension. It will show us the low speed behavior, mid-speed behavior, and high speed behavior so we can determine the characteristics for sharp jolts in the road versus dynamic roll of the vehicle. Most importantly, it will show us if there is any cross-talk between the adjustment settings and how much, which is a decent indicator of the quality of damper.

I realize many of the characteristics can be changed with valving and other methods. Notice I haven't described a desired curve or curves, as we're not even getting into that yet. We know those can be worked on. It would be nice to see the quality of the damper you're working with before we even invest time in trying to get one to suit our needs. Keep in mind we already have tons of inexpensive, low quality setups to choose from. We don't need another (unless yours is manufactured in countries we'd rather support over China!). We also have some mid-pack options. Again, we don't need more (unless yours is manufactured in countries we'd rather support over China!). We're all sitting here waiting around for the high-end setup of our dreams to be off the shelf (instead of us having to build it ourselves which many members resort to). This is why we want to see if you can deliver.



So... Before getting into anything else, you need to know mounting points.
The mounting points and flanges for the B13 are not the same as B14 in the rear. Furthermore, the mounting points and flanges for the B15 are again different in the rear from the B13 and B14. (Additionally, the B13 has an independent rear suspension.) I don't know for sure, but I believe the mounting points and flanges for the front are the same across all chassis. Someone will want to confirm this though.

Next, before getting into anything as detailed as corner weights or motions ratios and wheel frequencies you need to know what makes the front of the B13 and B14 so hard to design for. It's not complicated, it's just that some companies fail to take this into account. The front of the B13 and B14 (and maybe to some extent the B15) have a very limited travel from the factory. This, combined with the fact that our community prefers a performance drop of around 2" (we go through the process of fixing bump-steer, and other related issues when lowering) means that we can't get the drop we want from most suspension setups that are available unless they choose a shorter damper body. Having threaded height adjustment is not adequate when paired with a standard sized body, as adjustment will run into the CV boot before the desired drop is achieved.
This thread might help you visualize our main concern with the front travel: http://www.sr20-forum.com/information-library/45287-custom-shortened-konis-general-idea.html


That thread actually brings another thing to mind. Eibach has never made a proper stock-style replacement spring for our chassis. No one did actually, until we sought out Hyperco (in a league above Eibach) to make one to our specs. We as a community do not hold Eibach in high regard, they are a middle-tier spring company for us. The fact that your budget setup, and your high-end setup don't even use mid-level quality springs by default (I know you said Eibach ERS is an option for the high-end setup) is already enough for us to stop taking you seriously and lump you in with the Megan/BC/K-sport/whatever-else crowd of which we already have available and for cheaper.


If it's a debate we're having or that you want to have, might I suggest a new thread with a better title. As it stands now the rest of us are not aware you're here for a debate.


As mentioned earlier, the approach you should take is open (show us dyno charts, spring tests, and other stuff we ask for) and honest (don't tell us your GT1 setup is high-end when it uses mid-pack springs at best). Don't lump us in with other crowds you've dealt with. Treat us as if we know what we're talking about, and if we don't, offer to educate us instead of shutting us out.

meister's have quite a solid rep in the uk. alot of the A.O.C. guys have them and have nothing but good things to say about them.

i dont see how a $1k price tag can justify them being "high end", but nor do i think (unless your racing etc) you need a "high end" shock in our cars either. go buy some aragosta coilovers and watch the bank balance dwindle.

b14=n15 shock wise. plenty of guys have bought bc's built for sentra's from the states and shipped them to australia, but n15 is different to n16 and n14's.

i looked hard at the meisters myself ( in australia ) before deciding bc's were good enough, cheap enough, and most importantly had backup if i needed it

my 2c...

suspension i've driven on in various autox cars include
koni yellows
shortened koni yellows revalved to spss3 specs
double adjustable ast's
double adjustable ohlins
double adjustable penske's
double adjustable koni 2812's in a miata and a civic
double adjustable motons

i would rate the bc racing far below any of the above... i have bc racing on my pulsar as there's no really other choice out there, other than ksports,megan racing same pile
my pulsar is just my toy and not used for anything serious and i didn't want to invest a lot of time and effort make something...
i'm retrofitting some b13 advance design's now to the pulsar kuz i despise the bc racing that much and i need to drive the pulsar till the ND miata is ready for sale
they lack travel, have terrible low speed compression valving, and simply do not do anything well except sit low

i asked questions about travel, valving, etc b/c if you claim high end they better feel like ast's, ohlins, koni 2812,s or motons..
they all run a shit ton of low speed compression and are far more comfortable than the bc racing coilovers on softer springs

Right guys, I am listening so know I am not ignoring anything.
A few valid point and I do think we sway a bit as we start to bunched up the Zeta-R and the GT1 all together.

As I have said, the Zeta-R is a mass produced "entry" level suspension, so there are limitation and it isn't high end in any way.
When you start bunching up Ohlins and Penske, it is the GT1 we are talking bout and that is what this "high end" suspensions thread is about.
So lets move our focus to the GT1.

Now, as with anything… the more you "pay", the more you "expect".
So given the higher price for the GT1, the questions asked are valid.
On average, the GT1 are build like the Ohlins DFV, they are design to be an all rounder that is comfortable on the road as well as responsive on the track.
However, for specific need, we can custom valved the damper for specific appellation with the limitation of it being a 1-way adjustable still.
So if you need a lot of low speed bump because you are running slick tyres, we can (and have) done that with the GT1 coilovers.

As for springs, it can be easily done as we can change the springs during the damper build.
However, we try to keep the price reasonable so we offer Eibach ERS springs as an additional upgrade.
Most owners who are serious about performance will go for the ERS, or Swift in your case.

The fact is we don't have the choice in the UK.
Eibach have been used in the racing community for decades, and you cannot buy Swift or HyperCo here.
Therefore, offering the Eibach is a default and only choice for springs upgrade.
I have contact with Swift springs so it is a possibility to work with them in the USA in the future, but for now our suspension that are build and sold in the UK can only use Eibach as an upgrade.

Either way, I do hear what you guys are saying so I'll have a chat with my engineers.
As I am away from UK for a month or so (I am actually in USA right now sorting out the new office infrastructure), it may take a little time to sort everything out.
But it is a good start as I am starting to see what the community are "interested" in seeing so I can provide information base on what you want to know.

Any suggestion or comment, do keep them coming. I will try to work out a general "presentation" that I can use to show other community that will address the member's concerns.

Jerrick

The reason I want shock dyno's is to compare it to say BC. Right now I'm starting to look for a suspension for my P11, and I'm pretty set on BC's, but if you guys have something with better shocks, I will heavily consider it. As for springs, I kind of expected them to be cheap, no real surprise. I'm probably gonna run SWIFT's in them at the end of the day.

Do you guys offer custom spring rates and valve the shocks to those spring rates?

I haven't been checking in as we are busy finishing off the GT1 development, should have something by next week.

Now, if we are talking about the MeisterR GT1 vs BC, it is going to be night and day.
But at the same time, being hand build in the UK using precision CNC internals with a lifetime warranty (something we are setting the terms for at the moment) mean it won't be $1000 BC cheap either.
The GT1 is going to be around the $2800 mark, so much cheaper than the other high end suspension (Such as Ohlins DFV) if you are after that performance segment.

The problem with Dyno at the moment is we build and tune our suspension using force vs displacement dyno.
We rarely use force vs velocity dyno as it doesn't show the cracking pressure or how the peak force is achieved.
And I don't think I have ever seen a BC force vs displacement dyno @ 140mm/s, so not sure how you want to compare it.

As for custom springs rate and valving, it is a service that we want to offer for specific application.
We can easily do it and have done it before.
What we don't want is to spec a "GT1" with race spec setting and the owners put it on a road car.
Then you get load of backlash about the suspension being stiff and horrible on the road… So it is something we are considering a system for at the moment.

For now, we will finish off the GT1 development and have add a few new feature that should be ready in a few weeks time.
I will look into getting some "pretty" looking dyno, probably from renting a Roehrig or something similar that is better at saving colourful digital format of the dyno.
I'll sort something out regarding the dyno in the near future as speaking to everyone I do think it will be something that is necessary in the long term.

Jerrick