Thread: Alignment Q's

So i just got everything installed and got an alignment.
The car is a 95 GXE with a SR swap and SER rear beam and brake swap.
Here is the setup
AGX struts (3F/6R) w/ GC coil overs (325F/300R)
Cusco front pillow ball mounts
ME rear mounts
Koni Bump Stops
Bolt-in-Bars bump stop eliminator kit (set under the spindle with the one large spacer)
Whiteline caster bushings
ES Control arm bushings (front of control arm only)
ES rear trailing arm bushings
ES steering rack bushings
New Moog ball joint
New wheel bearings
New axles
ST Front sway bar, Rear not installed

Front alignment numbers
Camber L -1.3* R -1.3*
Caster L 2.5* R 1.5*
Toe L .10* R .10*

I am experiencing a very twitchy car, I did not have a front sway bar on for a day and it was very twitchy. After i put the ST front bar on it got a little better but still likes to wander all over the place. The roads are rather uneven here and it pushes me back and forth in my lane. And when i start into a corner it will go, then go too much, and i have to back off a little. It seems like the rear end is drifting around the corner, it never felt like this before.

Now i dont have any experience with a full setup like this. Is this just they way they handle? I am going to put the rear sway bar on and see if that makes a difference. Would the left side caster have anything to do with it? We could not get it to move from there at all. 1.5 is within spec but 2.5 is not. Do i have too much camber? I think the rear camber was at -1* or so but everything was in spec.

Do i just have to get use to this or are there minor tweeks i can do to get it a little better. Could i use the ES rear control arm bushings instead of the Whiteline ones? i would think this would through the caster off even more.

I want to get the rear beam at 0* toe but that might not happen for a little while.

Any info would be appreciated.

No, this does not sound normal.

Definitely get your rear bar installed and then re-evaluate. Your car sounds like it has too much toe out. It's not clear from your post whether you have toe in or toe out, also check the units -- are they degrees or inches? 0.2 inches (if that's what you have) toe out would make the car twitchy and real hard on tires. 0.2 degrees toe out is a reasonable setting. I usually set my street cars at zero toe to avoid the twitchy wandering.

Camber is not too outrageous, though I read that with the caster bushings, you need less camber.

Caster is not too out of wack either -- just slightly out of spec.

I don't know anything about your bump steer eliminator kit, but nothing else looks out of wack.

What kind of wheels and tires are you running?

Sorry I cannot be more helpful.

Bill

squirlz,

we will need to get in touch regarding your experience with the Chuck BUMP STEER kit!!! But this is for later.

1. Indeed, DO CHECK the TOE.
Is this TOE IN or TOE OUT?
What units are you using?
Do you have a printout from the shop where this is made clear?
WHAT RIM SIZE are you using ? (I need this to convert from degrees to mm in case you do have .1 degrees on EACH side as indicated above)
In any case, .1 deg per side does not seem very large, although on the front I, do not see any reason to go TOE OUT. Zero is just fine!

In case as Bill said it is 0.2 inches and it is Toe Out, correct it now!

2. Caster should be altered somehow! 2.5 vs 1.5 is some difference PLUS you would need more caster on the right side of the car, not on the left as it is! A prevalent theory is that you need to have slightly more caster on the "outside" wheel to overcome the effect of the road crown.

3. Finally, as Bill said, you need to investigate the effect of the bump-steer kit and share it with us. I am hesitating for over a year to get one of those since my car is NOT lowered "enough" (only close to 1') to take advantage of the kit.

I am running stock SER wheels with 205/50/R15's. Every thing was in degrees. As far as toe in vs out i think it was toe out, it was right on factory spec. I got the rear bar on and it is a lot better. more balanced but the rear end still feels weird. It seems like the rear takes a little bit to follow and once it does it feels great. But when i started getting more comfertable with the car i was getting into it a little harder in the corners and it felt better.

The bump steer kit really leveled out the tie rods, they were at a bad angle before we did the alignment. A friend did the alignment for me with me there and he wants to try to get the caster figured out. We can take toe to 0* and try to puts with the caster again.

OK, if it is in degrees AND it is on factory spec then it is TOE IN (as in all B-chassis cars I know, not one of them comes with TOE OUT) 1-3mm or 6'-18' of a degree - that is 0.1 to 0.3 degrees TOTAL left+right.

Your 0.1+0.1 is 0.2 or... right on the middle of factory spec! This is NOT your problem! If it IS TOE OUT then it may be your problem but it is NOT on factory spec.

I would guess that the left-weighted caster may be your problem here. However, if you exclude the wandering around symptom, the others you are describing are not consistent with unalligned front end. Usually when someone describes front-end allignment problems he does not mention the rear end so much.

For the bump-steer kit I am interested since I have my reservations. Chuck said that it may not work, and may not even fit duew to binding or hitting something on mildly lowered cars. How low is your setup? Preferably provide a measurement from center of wheel hub to fender directly above it so we have some point of reference and can compare with stock ride height.

You are right about the toe, it is toe in. i got a little confused. As far as the bump steer i have no experience with it aligned with the factory tie rod ends. I will drive it a little tonight and see if i can get a better description. I also read somewhere that once the beam is bent to 0 toe than it make the rear end seem to turn with the car instead of "drag" behind it. I think i am feeling this dragging of the rear end. It seems like it wants to slide out from behind me but it wont. I have put about 60 miles on the car after it was aligned, then maybe 10-15 with the front sway only, and another 10 after the rear bar.

It was just really scary with no sway bars and didnt know what the caster would do. I will take it out tonight and give it a good beat lap and see what i can get it to do.

Thanks for the help so far and i will get the measurements you requested.

~13.75 from the center of the wheel to the fender. Also 7.5" from the ground to the rocker panel. Where the rocker and crimp meet. Front is level and rear is level but the rocker in the rear is about ~.5" higher from the rocker to the ground.

Do you know what stock height on SER's is? I took it for just a little drive and it seems fine. I just drove it around town so no high speed corners. Going over bumps it is fine and does not twitch at all. I should have a new knock sensor soon to where i can drive it over a long distance and get a better idea of high speed cornering.

I just ran out and measured my B14 height. I have about 13 1/4" from the center of the wheels to the fender on both front and rear with Hyperco springs. Could not measure to the rockers because of the side skirts. It sounds like you could go a little lower.
Definitely get your beam bent. It will correct the "dragging" rear that you are experiencing. Mine was done about a month ago and I am still amazed at how much difference it makes.

Well, for a 1996 SE-R with a 195/55R15 tire, it says that the distance from the Fender Lip to the GROUND is 26.34" (669mm) FRONT and 25.59" (650mm) REAR.

Subtract from that 1/2 of the tire diameter (11.7225") we get for OEM height centerhub to fender:

FRONT: 14.62"
REAR: 13.87"

Presumably you are 14.62- 13.75 = 0.87" lowered up front. IF the tire size assumption was WRONG, then this # is wrong too. Pretty modest lowering and nothing that should throw your suspension off!

Still, this makes the bump-steer elimination kit even more ... "suspect"... Its creator has warned against using it in very mildly lowered cars because he had not speced it for those!

Someone needs to check the advertised lowering of the B14 Hypercos, I am not familaiar at all with them. That said, oldguy seems to be close to 1.37" lowered in the front and 0.60" on the rear.

Again, I used a 1996 car as the reference AND a 195/55R15 tire.