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Thread: Opinions wanted from those with AGX and Road Magnet setup

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Posts: 11-20 of 32
2009-11-09 04:58:34
#11
Ok I really could not wait. Before I left I tried 2f/4r.

For some reason, I had 3f/5r and have been using that DD for over a year now. I dunno why, but I am sure I had a reason to do it.

I drove around at 1f/1r and I honestly could not believe how "comfy" it was. It does suck up bumps a lot better but at the sacrifice of that "gripiness" or responsiveness (much better) that I am accustomed too. I definitely feel much less prone to driving faster which in turn would save me money on gas! Since I just got a job that I have to drive about 25 minutes each way, each day, I think I will try 1f/1r for a week.

Anyways, sorry for the rant. After driving around on 1f/1r, I changed it to 3f/6r and I really enjoyed it more than 3f/5f! I had issues with the rear for sometime and did not think it would be my struts but I believe 3f/6f is better for me when I want a DD with ultra handling!

Like I said above, I will try 1f/1r for a week while I drive back and forth to work and see how that works out for me. I have not done anything that needed superb handling in a long time. The only concern I have is that on large bumps or high speed hits that it will bottom out way too fast for me to really do anything about it and that will decrease the life of the shock more than what it is already. I have about 4 years on these struts!
2009-11-09 13:02:09
#12
I'm not 100% sure but I believe the springs are stiff enough to prevent the suspension from bottoming out even on 1/1. I wouldn't be too worried, but things might be a bit different on a B14.
2009-11-09 20:55:11
#13
Originally Posted by BenFenner
No I am not against it. It is a cheap combination that works well on the street. It is heads and shoulders above the stock suspension. Just realize that it's stiffness adjustability is in the damping settings, and that's a bit backwards.

If you'd like me to get more into it I can.



You have my attention, I am certainly no suspension expert so any info is appreciated.

Originally Posted by BenFenner

If you have the budget and the need for a CSK setup then that would be preferable, but I wouldn't recommend that type of strut setup with a stock spring. No way. I don't see the point. I'd say the RM or Hyperco at the least.


Thats the thing, in being honest I dont think I do have the need for CSK's and cannot justify spending the money when I have a free set of AGX's sitting around. Its fun to have the best setup in the world but if all you do is drive to work and back and go to the drag strip a few times a year it hardly seems justified.

I remember a five to ten years ago the AGX's and Prokits were the greatest thing since sliced bread... then hyperco's come out and they are the greatest thing ever paired with AGX's... then people start doing CSK's with Hyperco's and now all the sudden they are the best ever and everything else sucks. It just baffles me sometimes.
2009-11-09 22:04:40
#14
I'll explain why stiffening a suspension with dampers is backwards.

The spring and the damper do two completely different things in a suspension. Imagine you're trying to design a suspension. You're sick of bouncing over every bump, so you decide to put a spring between the wheels and the chassis (like a horse drawn carriage maybe). Okay, awesome. You've now managed to separate the wheels from the chassis with a spring. The car doesn't crash over every little bump now. Woohoo!

Except there's one problem. Now when you go over a bump the car soaks up the bump but it continues to bounce and bounce and bounce down the road for miles.

Hmm... Let's do something about that.

What if we put a hydraulic sleeve+shaft that would compress with no resistance, but would resist expanding? Yeah... That's the ticket. We can put this hydraulic damper by the spring, that way when the spring compresses to soak up the bump in the road it won't rebound so forcefully. When it rebounds, the hydraulic damper will control the rebound and slow it down so it doesn't oscillate between compression and rebound like it did before.

Hells yeah we've got a sweet suspension now. When the car approaches a raised bump in the road, the wheel travels up quickly, compressing the spring in the process. Then the spring is allowed to slowly return to it's normal height without exceeding it.



This is how a typical OEM suspension works. It will soak up bumps very well with the weak spring (and required weak damper). It will also wallow around in the corners and lean a lot due to the weak spring.

Want to make it perform better around corners?

The easiest thing to do is to stop the car from wallowing around, swaying this way and that. The best way to do that is by increasing the strength of the spring. If you increase the strength of the spring you will prevent the car from swaying so much in corners and you'll have a faster car. Once you increase the strength of the spring you've got a new problem on your hands. That damper you had before used to be strong enough to stop the spring from expanding after compression. Now it's not strong enough so you've got bouncing again. Okay, we know how to solve this. It's time to make the damper stronger. But remember! You're only interested in making it stronger in one direction. The spring should compress without the damper adding any resistance, then when the spring tries to rebound the damper should control that motion. Install a damper that has strong rebound properties and you're back in business.

At this point you've got a car that handles corners much better than OEM and you've given up a little bit of that smooth ride when you increased the spring strength (there is no free lunch remember). The speed with which the wheels react to a bump in the road will be slower and the spring will translate more of that bump directly to the chassis. This is inevitable with this type of suspension. The ride quality difference between these two springs will be perceivable, but very minimal.


Now that we have this sweet handling car we realize it's not enough and we want more. We don't want any bit of roll left in our chassis if we can help it. It's time to do what? You guessed it, we need even stiffer springs this time, with a damper to match that has even stronger rebound control. Again you'll loose some comfort, but we're after the best handling car ever made and we're willing to give up some comfort.

Want things even stiffer? You'll need stronger springs and dampers to control it. Starting to see a pattern here? There is no good way to adjust the stiffness of a suspension without swapping springs and getting a matched damper with little to no compression resistance and proper rebound resistance.


Those are the basics (and I do stress; B-A-S-I-C) of a typical spring and damper suspension. Next up is the backwards way of doing it.





Okay. You may have noticed that there was a lot of spring swapping going on above. That's one issue with doing it the "right" way. Some people are lazy, or poor, or whatever and they don't want to swap springs all the time. Another (bigger) problem with what I've explained is that (for what ever reason) dampers that have no compression resistance and massive rebound resistance are very, very, very hard to make. It's infinitely easier to design and manufacture a damper that has the same resistance to compression and rebound. The further apart you want the resistance of these two directions of travel, the harder it is to design and the more expensive the damper will be.


Let's enter the real world for a second.

People want a suspension that they can change the characteristics of with the turn of a knob. They want to be able to buy any manner of spring and put it on any old damper and have it work. Most of all, they want it to be inexpensive.

This creates the following situation.

Suspension companies want to deliver what the customers demand but they can't work magic. There is no such thing as a cheap, adjustable spring (is there even such thing as an adjustable spring? Air bags maybe?). You're basically stuck with one spring rate unless you're willing to swap springs and most people are not willing to do that. So customers aren't going to swap springs, but they want to be able to change the stiffness of the suspension. Well, it seems in a drunken haze one night someone decided to look to the damper for that stiffness. Dampers are comparatively easy to make adjustable. It's easy to make compression adjustable on a damper. Hell, it's easier to make a damper with stiff compression. So instead of putting in a stiffer spring, the idea is to make the damper harder to compress. This makes it so the car won't roll in corners like the customer wants, but there is a GIGANTIC problem with this.

The damper will only compress at a certain speed, unlike a spring which can compress as fast as you'd like it. This is the huge problem with making a suspension stiffer by making the damper stiffer on the compression stroke.

Imagine you're approaching a speed bump at 40 MPH. With a weak spring, low unsprung weight, and a decently heavy chassis the spring will compress basically the height of the speed bump while the wheel travels up and over the speed bump. The chassis hasn't moved much at all, and the occupant didn't feel much. With the same spring, but strong damper (in the compression direction to stop the car from rolling around corners) the wheel will approach the speed bump but the spring will no longer be able to compress the 5" it needs to in the microseconds it takes for the car to travel the distance of the speed bump. The damper has basically taken over, and will only allow the wheel to travel at a MUCH slower speed. There is a max speed that damper will compress, and it's extremely slow. Trying to make it move faster will not work (that's the beauty of hydraulics). (Keep trying, and the damper will explode before it moves any faster.)

Now you're left with a wheel that can't move nearly fast enough to soak up any bumps because the damper is preventing quick compression of the spring.


I feel like I've gone on long enough with no real direction anymore. I will leave you with this.


Cheap/crappy suspensions have dampers with high compression rates because they are easier to make. This is the wrong way to make a car stiffer. Good, expensive suspensions have very stiff springs but don't feel very harsh because they have dampers that are designed to control the stiff springs, but won't add too much resistance to the compression stroke.

I'm sorry I couldn't make this easier to read. Maybe it would be best if you ask more questions and I answer them one by one.
2009-11-09 22:48:37
#15
Originally Posted by BurtonNX2000
I put RM Gen 2's and AGX's on my last NX2000. Prior to that I had driven the car for about 3 years on stock springs/struts. I wanted the RM's over the Hypercoils because the RM's are linear and the Hypercoils are progressive. I wanted a stiff feel.

I drove the car every day and put 12-15k miles on the RM/AGX setup, including a 1400 mile road trip and other shorter trips. I never thought the springs were too stiff. Actually my first reaction after install was that they didn't feel as stiff as I thought they would. I ran the AGX's at 3 front 6 rear.

Cruising down a straight freeway this setup feels nice, almost stock-like. In turns there is wayyyy less body roll compared to stock. Tons of fun with sticky tires. Rough roads and speed bumps kind of suck though. You have to be very aware of the road surface with this setup, which I personally think is worth it but some people may not.

I would definitely have that setup again, although I think if I spring for springs, I may try Hypercoils this time around just because of crappy roads. Like you mentioned though, they are not easy to find.


I've had every combination of Hyperco and Road magnet with AGX as well as several others. Having owned Burto's previous hardtop NX200 I have to say the RM gen II with AGX on 3/6 was the best handling standard coil/strut type B13 I have ever driven.

Personally I think the progressive part of the Hyperco makes turn-in suffer a lot for a slight improvement in ride quality.


ps; Beware of free AGXs. They are prone to failure.
2009-11-10 00:33:16
#16
Thanks BenFenner, I think I got the gist of it.

Benito Malito, I am with you on the free AGX's however I know for a fact where they have been sitting for the last few years without any use whatsoever. I should at least buy me enough time to save up for some CSK's.
2009-11-10 00:45:33
#17
Just test them before you put them on. If they were sitting at full droop (like a car on jack stands) they are almost certainly dead. If they are iffy don't install. It will be no fun to drive.
2009-11-10 00:57:24
#18
Nate, do the csk's urself, it ain't hard to do.
however, i do not think the koni inserts will fit w/ your gr2's.
i have a spare set already prepped and hollowed out, but the inserts but the inserts are just a mm too thick.
2009-11-10 04:22:55
#19
Thank you Ben. Even after one day of driving about 50 miles, I feel confident that it would taek one hell of a hit or one large case of me not paying attention to where I am driving to bottom them out, even on 1f/1r.

I dunno what the sweet spot is for these, I am guessing 3f/6r, like you suggested? I have no idea how I can tell if too much is too much with increasing the settings on the AGX's for DD.
2009-11-10 10:53:30
#20
Ben , your explanations are always a pleasure to read and easy to understand.
I am with you about the stiff dampers.That is why I think Tokico are sh*t - they are way too stiff on compression. AGXs are compression and rebound adjustable right? But it's just one knob so when you are turning it you are stiffening rebound and compression. Konis are rebound adjustable only (their compression dampness stays the same) and may be that is why they are so good in giving you a comfortable , but confident feel.
I am not in the US ,so getting a set of RMs or HyperCoils was not an option. I bought a set of ProKits and I will try to do CSKs myself. If I shorten the struts about an 1" and modify the bump stops , there will be OEM-like suspension travel.
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