Thread: Ever wonder what a stock DE can do with Engine Management?

and that's why i asked! LOL


thanx man!!! i really hadn't ever heard of the VEMS before this thread... im a total NOOB...

I quit.

no HP dont wint the race torque does man.

Think about it... a high HP car you have to rev high to get the car going and the torque is getting to the power faster and moves the car faster.

and all in all...a race is won by a few things... driver been one...traction..and power to weight ratio man

Torque plain and simply measures the strength force to rotate an object about some axis.Put plain and simply - if you dont have torque, you dont have a car that moves my friend.


To also prove my point:

HP = [(Torque x RPM) / 5252]


As you can see above - HP calculations are derived directly from torque.


Electric motors are measured in the amount of torque they can produce - not the amount of HP they produce.

Your Big Rig rigs - Mac, International, Kenworth - all have big diesels, they haul over 20 tonnes sometimes but only produce 440hp - the thing is they make over 2500nm worth of torque to pull that load - torque is the measure of pure strength.

I can go on all day if needed.

Maybe ask your local stockcar/nascar driver - see if he would rather an 8cyl with More HP, or an 8cyl with more torque.

The fact is that he's got useful torque from 3000 to 7250, thats a pretty good spread there.

Horsepower is a measure of work over time... its a computed number not a measured number...but anyway

Nice work Ben. Very close to our numbers off an ITA motor on a dynopac and a calumecu realtime. Considering the limitations of ITA motor builds....id say very close to stock. but not bad. which really helps show me that we weren't far off our tuning if you got similar numbers as well. we were a bit higher but spent a lot of time on the dyno...considering it was for the biggest race of the year and all

Look Dan, there's no need to teach these guys anything. If they want to be ignorant, desk engineers/racers then we can't stop them. Really, I would have argued the same point myself but didn't want to turn my own thread into a shit storm. But, since we're already knee deep...

When someone says something like "torque wins races" or "a racer would rather have more torque, given the same power output" or "torque is god/fun/gets me off on cold nights/will have my babies one day" etc. what they really mean is that producing larger amounts of horsepower at lower engine revolutions is better than producing less horsepower at lower engine revolutions. No shit Sherlock.

I'm going to end the debate on HP vs. TQ right now, today, once and for all. We can all understand horsepower. It's a measurement we can all relate to. I don't feel I need to explain it further, except to reiterate what Dan said. Horsepower does work over time. Horsepower is a measurement of power. How fast something can be done depends on how much power you have to do it. Enough said.

Torque on the other hand is a measurement of force, specifically, the force used to rotate an object about some axis (or, keep an object from moving about some axis). This can't get anything accomplished on it's own. Let me say that again. Torque does nothing. Specifically instantaneous torque does nothing. Without the time element, no work can be accomplished.
If you went to an immovable object sticking out of the ground and tried to twist it, you could exert all sorts of torque on it all day long, and it would exert the same amount of torque back. This immovable object is literally applying millions of foot pounds of torque to match your millions of foot pounds, yet it goes nowhere. Once you let go, it stops too. This means the torque isn't applied for any meaningful length of time.

Yes, torque may be what is measured directly from a chassis dyno, but it is instantaneous torque. There is no component of time in the measurement. Take my dyno graph for example. I'm making approx. 110 ft. lbs. of torque at 3,300 RPM. Throw that into the equation for HP and you get about 70 HP. If I made more torque at 3,300 RPM, I'd make more HP at 3,300 RPM. And that is what we're after, horsepower. Because of the way the equations work, having relatively high horsepower at low RPM equates to a high torque figure. Having relatively low horsepower at low RPM equates to a low torque figure. High torque output just means "early" horsepower. Early horsepower is great in most racing competitions and conditions, but it is the horsepower that is getting the job done, or performing the work quickly.

Those big rigs don't accelerate because they have 2,000 ft. lbs. of torque at 300 RPM, it's because they have 200 HP at 300 RPM (where most cars have 5 HP). Get over it.

Burn!!

Let me try to sum this up. I do not completly understand how torque and horsepower are generated, calculated, measured, or any of that whoo haa. But from what i understand and from reading the posts above this is my conclusion.

Torque is what puts the vehicle in motion. It exerts a force on the wheels to make them spin. HP is that over time, you can have tq without hp but you can not have hp without torque.

So you need torque to get you moving but the actual work HORSE, pun intended, is HP. So to put it simply both win races, both win the race, its a balance of the two that makes the magic happen. Its like Bonnie and Clide, they were nothing before they met.

Now personally i like the more torquier cars such as Nissans since they get you off the line faster but higher HP cars will pull later on. so if you mix the two say with a low end TQ motor with a turbo you have the best combination. My friends Volvo S40 T5 makes some good low end TQ then the turbo kicks in to get you moving in the higher RPM's. The numbers are not super impressive but the car moves pretty well for what it is.

Don't deviate the theme... we're talking about engine management here...

Ben... when can we see some maps of the timing and inyection you're using?

I plan on posting my entire VEMS configuration (including all maps/tables) soon on the VEMS forum.
I have to find time, and I want to tune WOT a tad more.
Obviously the fuel delivery and spark timing maps are a hot item, so I'll try to rush them to the Internet ASAP.
I'd actually planned on posting the maps themselves in this thread once I got them:

http://www.sr20-forum.com/showthread.php?t=600