Thread: think tank - vqman's N/A Big Cam SR23DE Build 92x86

Good idea, that's actually what I was going to do in the beginning when I got this RR block. (just put a VE head on the RR block from the get-go). Everyone told me to just go with a VE, but I got this block for almost free, it was attached to a B15 LSD transmission and a very nice trailer - all for $600.

60,000 miles on the motor and trans.

the Mazworx engine rebuild and sleeving deal includes a VE oil pump....

but

I'm clueless as to how the oil squirter lines are incorporated into the block. Would these have to be drilled in? seriously, I need a garage so I can tear open some engines! LoL

maybe my next purchase shouldn't be a go-fast part, instead, I will get an engine stand. or two.

Used Ve $1000, can be had for cheaper but say a grand for simplicity sake.
N1 cams $500
sr16 Pistons shaved $200 with machine work if you use used pistons.
Daughterboard ECU $150-200, plus dyno time which you have to do for either setup.

This setup with your exhaust that you have including the ASP budget header since they are already paid for is the cost of the bottom end that you are going to buy. This should net around 210-215 whp. You can sell the s3's and recoup $300. Sell the block and head and recoup a couple hunderd. With that being said, it will be cheaper than just the bottom end you want. Maybe $300-$400 cheaper with sold parts. Sell the budget header for $500 and get a custom 4-1 with the money from header and cams you sold if you are looking for more power. That should put you around just over the cost of only the bottom end and should make at least 220 whp. I would also like to see what a big block de can do, but the cost doesn't justify it to me. I am sure that a 3 in exhaust would help you extract more power on either engine.

Header and exhaust can all be changed after the fact if you find you aren't getting to the horsepower you are looking for. I would just use the wideband at the dyno for tuning unless you plan on street tuning or really want to monitor your a/f ratios(not a bad idea), but again not 100% necessary as once it is tuned, you should have no issues. I would get oil temp, oil pressure and water temp gagues. This would leave you enough money if you spend what you will on the de to get a 4 fog bumper and the car painted or a custom intake and run 184c's with springs and retainers which can have a little bit of a rough idle which you will like. Cam gears are also a must with Kelfords. You could benefit from springs, retainers and cam gears on the N1's also but, are completely necessary on Kelfords. They are not needed on N1's but will net you a few hp and a better power curve. I have seen many people revving to 9K on stockers and running the cams straight up.

You could also take the money for the N1's out of the equation if you use the Kelfords. Another plus for the setups I have suggested is you could just have the whole setup done quicker, for way less money and be more reliable. Get an intake manifold similar to what Cory has if you want to spend the money you saved. It should net you a few more ponies and hold power better up top. I wouldn't get into the Kelfords unless you change the header at least and probably the intake manifold. N1's are great, even as drop in cams with no cam gears. The N1's require much less tuning and don't require valve springs and retainers. You would also not need the expensive Mazworks head gasket and save money there and use a VET headgasket. You could still opt for the Standalone and get a few more ponies, but I don't think it is worth the money on the build I suggested (either way you go) as a daughterboard and tunercode will be just fine.

This is just my opinion, you do what will make you happy. What would make me happy is having the engine in the car and driving around rather than the months of downtime it will take you to do a big block and the large cost associated with that setup. Get a little cleanup work on the head if you want a few more hp. Throw on a 75 shot with the extra money and buy a set of slicks with the money saved over the de build and the car will be a beast at the track and fun as hell to drive on the street with great power and oem reliabilty. To each his own and good luck with whatever you choose.

Another thing is that you could keep your ASP and see how far that will get you and sell the whole exhaust and header later on if you are itching for more power but I think that the setup I suggested, whichever of the variables you choose will get you to your power goals or higher and is much simpler to put together. You have so many options and I am rambling so I will let you chew on that for a few. Either way you go you will end up with a car that is super fun.

you should read the last post on the page before. :-) i have a feeling you only read the last post...(first on this page)

I did read the last post on the last page, which is why I suggested what I did, because of the fact that you will spend at least twice what you would than doing it my way. If the reason is because you like a lopey idle and a loss of low end power, I just can not understand it. I understand that the sound of a big cammed de at idle is mean sounding, I like that sound also. For an extra 2k, I would live with a nice smooth idle. It gives more of a sleeper effect. As far as what you are leaving out, with BC3 cams you will need cam gears, an absolute must. You will either need bigger injectors, 333's or 370's or an afpr. to run 4bar fuel pressure on the de injectors. You will also need the Mazworks headgasket, unless it is included in the cost of the sleeving, which I don't think it is. Besides porting and polishing, I would recommend a good valve job. If you are going to go that far and spend that much money on the engine, I wouldn't skimp on the cams and go with JWT's for a couple hundred more. I would also recommend a light weight flywheel and a better than stock clutch. The flywheel should help you get into your powerband quicker by revving quicker.

The VE you drove seems like it was probably a stock cammed VE. In the NA world, 200whp and 175whp are worlds apart. The N1 cams vs. stock cams are totally different in the top end. I would suggest trying to take a ride in a N1 VE before you make the leap. Is the price on the sleeve insert including pistons? If not you will need those too. What CR are the pistons you plan on going with. You will also need piston rings if not included. You seem like you have your mind set and hopefully aren't in a hurry to drive the car, since the build you are talking about is going to take some time.

Do you plan to do the assembly yourself? If not you are talking much more money for labor. I would also figure in the cost of new headbolts for the de. Also, I would recommend new gaskets and seals since you are building the engine. Valve seals, crank seals, v/c gasket set, etc. Sounds like you are going to do the DE so good luck with it. Tokes is right, you could always throw on a VE head later and have a killer engine, which if that happens, it will cost more money and more dyno time.

I will leave this alone because I can not understand your logic and it seems that we will never see eye to eye on this one. You must have deep pockets, thats for sure. Lets put it this way, if someone gave me a price on building a house that involved building the house with old style or antique materials the old fashion way, using only hand tools. Windows, siding, paint, insulation, heating, wood etc. that was available in 1925 and it will cost me twice as much to have that old style, feel which I like. Let's say he gave a price of say $400,000.

Another contractor comes in and can build the same house with modern day tools that get the job done quicker, with windows that are insulated better, a heating system that is 3 times as efficent and insulation that would cost me 1/3 of the cost to install and is at least 3 times as efficent than the stuff the other guy is installing. Say he quoted me $250,000 with all newer more efficient products. Since tool devolopment has come a long way since 1925 making building the house take a third of the time, they can charge less with better and more reliable parts. Plumbing, heating, lighting and electrical will be more efficent, cost less to install and the products being installed being so much more efficent and cheaper while offering a better product. Well for me it is a no brainer, I would use the newer, cheaper and more efficent stuff that will be more reliable and cost less money to build and use.. The house would not have than antique feel which is important for some people (like the sr20de), mostly people with money to waste.

The other house would feel newer, be more reliable, save me money up front and in the future because of the efficiency of the newer products and the fact that it takes less man hours to build would mean it would cost me less money up front with lower projected expenses and more creature comforts. Sounds to me like you have your mind made up so I am also trying to help you earlier in this post find the things you missed for the de build. I hope your $5k doller engine that makes 200 or so whp will make you happy. I would choose the newer, cheaper house or engine if you will. You can have what you want and as long as you enjoy it and have the money to do so. Differences are what makes the world interesting. I wish you luck my friend, I'm done with trying to change your mind, just want to see you succeed and enjoy whatever you build.

Wow, that is practically impossible to read.

i appreciate the insight and general concen. remember though, for my B13, my goal is not 200 or 225 HORSEPOWER, the goal is 200 or 225 big bore/big cam horsepower.. there are millions of ways to attain 200-225 horsepower, includimg of course completey different motors.

depending on how this goes, i imagine i will build a VE in a P10 also...

and yes i like antiques, but my appliances amd insulation would all be newer... :-D

oh, my pockets are deep(ish) enough. my biggest obstacle will be knowledge, this will b a learning experience for sure. i anticipate it costing $8-10k before just the engine/trans are done... then i still have to finish my suspension, body work, interior... and continue to get some drive time.

VQMAN needs to get a life

Well I wish you good luck VQ, I would really like to see what the engine you are going to build. It should make good power and hopefully the larger displacement will make up for the low end power loss of big cams. You will enjoy it, that I am sure of. Apparently the forum will not let me use indentations at the begining of a paragraph so sorry to those of you that read my ramblings. Waiting to see a big block de!

Have you considered using ITB's? If you are going to run a standalone, you can use a map sensor. Get rid of the MAF and run ITBs and have excellent throttle response. They are out there for the de, so it could be an option. I think that it would make the big block de a blast, but it will cost a few extra pennies.

The more I think about it, you should spend a decent amount on headwork to take advantage the cams and added air flow from the bump in displacement. I would recommend possibly bigger valves and some bowl work on the head also. I would do it while it was apart, but it could be done later also. I think ITBs would make this build super nasty but it will also be expensive also. Make sure who ever does the headwork knows your engine specs and is firmiliar with the sr. Are you considering a custom intake manifold, ITBs or trying the stock one at least port matched and extrude honed or just staying stock and going from there?

You are probably gonna want to ditch the MAF and pick up a maxima one to eliminate that choke point if you don't go ITBs. Curious to know how this ends up and which parts you end up going with. Also who you have do your headwork and how far you go with it. If using an intake manifold, you will probably be better off going with a larger throttle body alsoso that is another thing to consider. Once again, something you go change later if you find the stock one to be a restriction.

ITB's, larger valves and bowl work on the head...(i assume to give a more "hemi" type head design?)

damn we'd be talking about $15,000 for this motor, but then we'd be up near 250 whp with JWT C2's at 2.3L with 12.5:1 CR...

I've also thought about deleting the MAF altogether ... I just ordered the book from Sara Forst to start reading.. so much to learn.

the good thing is, I have a running car while I peice together another motor..