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Thread: VE with stock cams= good daily

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Posts: 71-80 of 83
2010-11-21 23:55:50
#71
ShawnB and Viprdude, before i did my VE swap i was very convinced that i could make my DE outperform a stock VE with simple bolt ons and a good tune. Boy was i wrong, intake,SSAC header, 2.5 exhaust, s4 cams, pulleys, and i got walked on by a stock VE with exhaust. Friends who have done this swap in the past tried to tell me not to wastes money building a DE cause it just wont compare but i was super stubborn.
Not to say that its all about the speed or the power, but the VE is a far superior engine all around. Oil squirters, better oil pump, VVL, more reliable. The drivabilty alone was worth it, much more torque all the way around and the throttle reponse is much better than you could ever imagine with a DE. Also i ran a similar exhaust set up that you guys have on your cars now (stock cat,2'x2.5thrush resonator, 2.5 piping, Apexi ws2 muffler) after the swap the exhaust was half as loud. All i could hear was the intake (no BS). Assuming its because of the better head design and the VVL.
In the end i guess its all about what you want out of your car, it was my DD for sometime until recently (winter) and its been flawless. Kick myself for not listening to people who have been there done that, lesson learned. good luck with whatever you choose
2010-11-21 23:56:10
#72
The whole point of a ve id to have the great top end WITH great drivabity and idle and all that. That's why I guess this is confusing. My 270whp ve could be my daily just fine if I hadn't stripped it
2010-11-22 00:40:08
#73
Originally Posted by cory
The whole point of a ve id to have the great top end WITH great drivabity and idle and all that. That's why I guess this is confusing. My 270whp ve could be my daily just fine if I hadn't stripped it




Exactly my thoughts, I plan on keeping my a/c.
2010-11-22 02:36:30
#74
Originally Posted by Viprdude
All of this is whole thread is people giving there subjective and personal tastes for what they think a daily driver should be.

I think that the 20V cams should stay out of N/A engines. Turbo can help it. Unless you have a 6 speed gearbox, or a nice big turbo, it is pointless. They are made for a 6 speed gear box which would keep those big fucking cams up there in the higher end longer, more often, whatever you want to say.

Dynos are fairly pointless unless you have one person on the same dyno, same machine, hell, even same operator doing it. And even then, that is only good for personal comparative purposes. Everything else could be a gross over or under exaggeration because like some other are saying in here, tuning matters.

My car ran like shit for a month because good old JWT decided to get lazy and not write on the program sticker "28 degrees of base timing" or something similar and they did not inform me that this would be using a 25 degrees of base timing. So, I ran for over a month with at least ten degrees of timing retarded in my car. I had shitty dyno results and when I give the car back those ten or plus degrees of timing, it loved it and the car made the power I was expecting.

Now, some other people also want to jump straight on the "since you dont own it, you cant possibly know shit about it". Engines are the fucking same man, they have not changed in a long long time what goes on inside those fuckers. Maybe how that shit gets in there and how that shit gets burned up and how that mixture gets toyed with before it enters there is different. But, when the air goes in, it must go out. That never changes.

Let me tell you this, with cars, numbers tell you a lot. And, numbers do not lie, they dont drink, eat, sleep and they are not a person. They dont lie. People do.

Shawn B, if you want something nice for all-motor daily driver. get a low port Euro red top engine, and make it a big block SR20. That engine would be super tits. I would get JWT S3 cams probably to maintain more low end torque. Mild cams are fun in an SR20. I know this now. But, with a big block SR20. That would be very fun. Maybe even make me do more headwork and get larger cams. JWTs program for these cams is very good, imho. I guarantee it. I would love to do that rather than get an SR20VE. THe DE is such a torquey bastard, that I may want to kepe the DE and just improve upon the internals for more power.



Dude please save me the time of not posting if you are gonna post useless things. I mean come on how does it make sense to build a DE??? You will have a ton of money in a motor that is only capable of making 200whp plus you would be spending alot of money for an old motor.

I mean you can get a VE all day for 1k shipped. And lets use Shawn B for an example here. He could buy a VE motor use all the parts he currently has and put it in the car and make 180whp and it is a perfect daily driver with better gas mileage. That is all I am saying.



Cory. Why swap a VE if you are not going to try to get the potential of the motor? Maybe because a guy wants a 13 second daily driver with A/C.
Or maybe a guy wants a nice b13 that isnt stripped down and he also enjoys going to the road course (which is real driving) and having a car that makes more hp so he car keep up with a RSX or S2000.
Or maybe just maybe the guy has had over 30 Sr20 Powered cars, had them in every form and had a 10 second turbo street driven sentra.

So that is why I posted this. If you are a guy the drives to work all the time a basic VE swap will make you happy.
That is all I am saying. In the real world nobody wants a loud ass car that is stripped to shit to drive everyday. That is all I am saying.
2010-11-22 04:14:40
#75
Originally Posted by cory
It is a fact the ve will make more tq down low but my whole point is if your just worried about your commute why the hell does it matter how much power your making??

"Just". I would assert most street cars see various duties. Not "just" a commute to work.

My Classic is usually my daily driver, unless the weather sucks or I need to haul stuff (Chevy Tahoe time...). That does not mean I do not punch it on entrance ramps, enjoy clover leafs, take the long twisty way home, or have plans to hit road courses on occassion.

*Guessing* I have....135'ish whp, a jump to 180'ish on a mostly stock (I/H/E, professional tuning) VE sounds like a helluva jump in fun.

Originally Posted by nissansr20nx
I mean you can get a VE all day for 1k shipped. And lets use Shawn B for an example here. He could buy a VE motor use all the parts he currently has and put it in the car and make 180whp and it is a perfect daily driver with better gas mileage.

....which is an ultra-easy, OEM-reliable, 45 whp () jump in power.

Originally Posted by nissansr20nx
Maybe because a guy wants a 13 second daily driver with A/C.
Or maybe a guy wants a nice b13 that isnt stripped down and he also enjoys going to the road course (which is real driving) and having a car that makes more hp so he car keep up with a RSX or S2000.

So that is why I posted this. If you are a guy the drives to work all the time a basic VE swap will make you happy. In the real world nobody wants a loud ass car that is stripped to shit to drive everyday.

I can relate to this entire post, and thread for that matter.
2010-11-22 05:06:43
#76
Originally Posted by nissansr20nx
Maybe because a guy wants a 13 second daily driver with A/C. Or maybe a guy wants a nice b13 that isn't stripped down and he also enjoys going to the road course (which is real driving) and having a car that makes more hp so he car keep up with a (significantly more expensive) RSX or S2000.

If you are a guy that drives to work all the time a basic VE swap will make you happy. In the real world nobody wants a loud ass car that is stripped to shit to drive everyday.

I really couldn't have said this any better. Rodney gets it.
Originally Posted by Shawn
My Classic is usually my daily driver, unless the weather sucks or I need to haul stuff (Chevy Tahoe time...). That does not mean I do not punch it on entrance ramps, enjoy clover leafs, take the long twisty way home, or have plans to hit road courses on occasion. ....a jump to 180'ish on a mostly stock (I/H/E, professional tuning) VE sounds like a helluva jump in fun.
I can relate to this entire post, and thread for that matter.


I can assure you that you be quite happy with a stock VE done properly. Think back to your ride with Chris driving at Roebling Road and remember the smile you had on your face.
"......a special car gets you there with a smile on your face."
2010-11-22 06:44:17
#77
Originally Posted by blusteelsr20
I have used stock, 16ve, & N1 cams on the same motor and the stockers are more suited for daily driving because of more usable low end grunt on the low lobes. So numbers are objective but unless you tune your setup to get the best performance possible that's all they are... just numbers.


1st hand experience overrides any suppositions from numbers. However, I am also inclined to question why is there any difference in low end between the N1 and SR20VE stock cams, given the similar specs or even favored numbers towards N1. I have only driven on SR16 cams so dont have that experience.

Originally Posted by happynole
When I tuned my SE-R (90% track use) with N1's for max power across the curve the low cams felt very flat and the high cams were awesome... When you overlay the 2 cars, they make almost equal power on the low cams before the crossover, and the NX makes more power early on the high cam because it switches first at 5100... Same cams on both VE's and both with 3" exhaust, but different intake & header on each car and a corresponding different tune. Tuning definitely makes a difference.


But the difference is mostly on the intakes and headers of both, how they respond differently to low end and high end power, cause Im thinking you tuned for max performance in both cases, didnt you? So unless Im blind-folded by thinking that tuning is strictly related to ECU tinkering... I dont get it.
Say if you wanted to tune the low end on the SE-R, what will be stopping you? Tuning AFR/Timing/etc OR intake / header that are not suited for low end? And viceversa with tuning the NX for high end?


Originally Posted by nissansr20nx
I have seen 200whp out of a JWT with no tuning. I have also seen 160 out of a Jwt.
Dyno and then tune.


Your thread is about daily driving, not max whp . It gets a lot more complicated to tune for low end rpm and daily drive (not WOT) on a dyno, unless it´s a loaded dyno and you have lots of time.

Originally Posted by Viprdude
Repeat.

Plain old SR16 cams would be best for the street.

Plain old SR16VE cam specs
Low lift/low duration intake: 7.1mm/200 degrees
Low lift/low duration exhaust: 7.95mm/244 degrees
High lift/high duration intake: 11.1mm/280 degrees
High lift/high duration exhaust: 11.1/280 degrees

On the low lift exhaust cam, it is promoting scavenging and gets hot, dirty, filthy gases out faster.


While I think from own experience that SR16 cams are great in the low end for daily driving and not wimps like the lift/duration suggest, how do you know scavenging > lift/duration?

On the other hand, if scavenging is not as important in daily non WOT driving, then I see why they say, from SOTP experience, that the 20VE cams have better low end than the N1 despite their better exhaust low lobe lift/duration. Think about it, they have some credit on their side because they have experienced it and tell you 20VE > N1 in low lobes and daily. And they also say SR16 are the wimpest of them all in the low lobes, despite your numbers and reasoning.

Originally Posted by cory
This thread really makes me think.... I mean come on whay are we even discussing this??? If the car is just going to be a daily to commute then why do you have a ve in the first place? And if you bother putting a ve in it whay not try to take advantage of this much superior power plant that you put in the car for a reason... I guess I don't get the point. Why are you swapping the motor if all you car about is power down low. Stick w the stock set up or throw a t25 on it. Idk..................


Well, I went from DE with S5 cams to GTi-R DET to VE. I am searching for more power and would sacrifice the low end anytime, BUT I cannot be happier with the fact that the VE has the nicest idle, can get you around town without noise below 3000rpm @ 3" exh, still give you a smile below the switch point with spirited driving AND become a beast when on the high lobes.

Its the best of all worlds! So IMO, with their falling prices yes the VE is the best daily driver! You´d miss out if you dont want to rev it out more than 5000rpm, but it would be a nice grocery getter and hey then you save the switch.
2010-11-22 06:51:20
#78
Originally Posted by Viprdude
DE is so torquey, which is what everyone wants for a daily driver, it makes no sense again to discard it for a VE.


1. Get a VE, if only to test it from a friend.
2. Use all the same bolt ons from your DE.
3. Drive, below VVL if you wish.
4. Rinse, repeat, as many times as required.
5. Which one is more torquey?


If after doing that, you say its the DE, then we´ll believe you. But some might say you are only being subjective.
2010-11-23 17:13:42
#79
^^^ Good points. Also the stock VE & N1 low lobes are different enough that the N1s need to be tuned to bring the low end up to par. There are threads on this in the tuning section of the forums also. I question why the difference a lot but one thing I do know is that a great many here don't use cam gears on the stockers and a few that do will adjust them on the N1s to improve hp & tq throughout the powerband especially in the midrange where a lot of daily driving occurs. This combined with remapping the fuel and timing seems typical of a lot of N1 users, even me. Most know or should know that the only set of cams that were designed on a 2L VE from Nissan were the 20Vs and the stock VE cams. The 16VE & N1s were designed for the 1.6L VE. Supposedly the 20Vs have the best low lobe cams for the 2L VE at least in specs they do. Maybe those that do have them can chime in. Just speculating but even though the Stock VE & N1 low lobes may be somewhat similar they were designed from Nissan to work more efficiently on different displacement motors. We as performance enthusiasts are always looking for ways to safely increase power levels without sacrificing drivability whether DE, VE or turbo. The 16VE & N1 cams are a drop in option for the stock or massaged 2L VE that have been a proven bolt on but knowing that they were designed for a 1.6 should be taken in consideration when comparing them to the stockers. Just a thought. Probably another sound reason to tune your setup for optimum performance and drivability.
2010-11-23 17:56:47
#80
Originally Posted by gtswrx
1st hand experience overrides any suppositions from numbers. However, I am also inclined to question why is there any difference in low end between the N1 and SR20VE stock cams, given the similar specs or even favored numbers towards N1. I have only driven on SR16 cams so dont have that experience.


On the other hand, if scavenging is not as important in daily non WOT driving, then I see why they say, from SOTP experience, that the 20VE cams have better low end than the N1 despite their better exhaust low lobe lift/duration. Think about it, they have some credit on their side because they have experienced it and tell you 20VE > N1 in low lobes and daily. And they also say SR16 are the wimpest of them all in the low lobes, despite your numbers and reasoning.


I have driven on both std and n1 cams, and there is little difference between the 2 on the low lobes. the n1's dyno'd slightly better but the SOTP didnt really give much of a difference.

The VE always felt stronger down low than my DE (even with poncams), most likely due to the extra compression.
The VE's greatest strength is great top end, with solid bottom end and no sacrifice of idle or fuel economy.

So in conclusion
a) If you're a tight ass, and dont want to use the high lobes much, stick with the std cams
b) if you want ~20hp more up top, spend the bit of money and get n1's, without losing anything down low.
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