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Thread: Can't Ship? Don't Sell!

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Posts: 11-20 of 58
2014-04-25 16:45:03
Kyle, of course you can be involved. We are all involved. I think back to the Overkill Engineering Motorsports debacle where I feel personally as a community member I was heavily involved in that outcome, as were many, many others.

As for the moderators doing the work required. I realize it is not obvious and out in the open, but right now we have four serious issues with regard to users and the classifieds. We are working through all four of them methodically and fairly. As is the nature of the beast, each outcome will take some time. The concern with chapnutz1 is ongoing and no decisions have been made yet. However, they will come in due time. I promise.

I'm sure I speak for most when I say we share your concern about good community members being ripped off and taken advantage of by charlatans in our midst. We are not sitting back and doing nothing. We're just working through the steps. And we appreciate you doing your part by expressing your concern. I am just as concerned, I assure you.
Last edited by BenFenner on 2015-03-11 at 15-51-10.
2014-04-25 16:52:12
i dont see the problem, either ban him entirely or ban him from the classifieds.. he's a repeat offender and he will continue to be unless something is done about it.

i too have kept quite until a few of my friends (both here and ones i know in person) did business with him.
2014-04-25 17:18:31
I want to take the time to explain a few more things that I think are pertinent.

First, the majority of forums out there provide a section for the membership to buy and sell. The majority of those take a hands-off approach, providing the space but little-to-no oversight. You are told to buy and sell at your own risk and expected to handle disputes on your own. This is because it is easier than moderating the section, and because once a forum starts moderating the classifieds (even if members are told they buy and sell at their own risk) unavoidably members start feeling entitled to a certain level or protection, even if really none can be given.

About 6 years ago we as a community decided to make the transition to a moderated classified section (instead of just keeping the old blacklist), and 4 years ago things really clamped down. This was due to membership perceiving the classifieds as out of control with an unacceptable level of poor transactions. Many steps were taken and processes put in place to try to control the situation as I'm sure you're familiar. In my opinion they have truly worked, and we have one of the best classified sections of any forum or community. I believe we have done a good job of pushing the riff-raff out, at least relegating them to other portions of the Internet beyond our control. I like the system and I think it works.

The crux of this issue, as I see it, is how much and what kind of misbehavior do we tolerate before banning someone from the classifieds and/or stripping them of a Vendor section. With some famous examples (JGY and OEM come to mind) it took a half dozen or so missteps over a period of time before they were dealt with. Those turned into full forum bans, but that's a different story. I've been doing some research on this lately. There are other members who've been banned from the classifieds because of one sale gone wrong less than 2 weeks after the issue was brought up. At the time I found this, I thought this was a good example of how it should be done. One strike and you're out...

However, there are two problems with that kind of absolute intolerance.
1) Users have been banned from the classifieds after one misstep who turned out later to not deserve the ban.
2) Why do we have the User Feedback and iTrader tools at our disposal if any sort of negative or non-positive outcome is enough to ban a member? We should just have a "Ban this User" section and call it a day.

As much as I hate to admit it myself, people deserve some level of humane treatment and forgiveness in the classifieds. A multi-tiered approach seems appropriate and we have the tools for this. First the issues are in iTrader and User Feedback threads. Then if it gets to be a trend, it's been floated that a 3-strikes rule be used for banning, but that isn't at all settled on. As the rules sit right now, there is too much leeway. We don't have specifics as to how to deal fairly with these cases. I'm leading the campaign to get those things spelled out so everyone is treated the same.

Now obviously, bannings or threats of bannings aren't the only tool at our community's disposal. The blacklist is there. There is social pressure we can place on individuals. There are the Feedback threads themselves. At one point the classifieds automatically placed links to the iTrader ratings of the user and encouraged users to check for entries in the User Feedback section (possibly even with a direct link to the user's feedback if it existed). It's probably time to see if we can put that back. I'm not sure where it went. The limits on discussion in a for sale thread have been heavily relaxed, so members can always post warnings in for sale threads about a seller's behavior, with links to their feedback thread even.

I'll leave it here, since I don't wish to ramble. Any thoughts on the above are welcome.
Last edited by BenFenner on 2014-04-28 at 18-02-09.
2014-04-25 17:23:29
Originally Posted by lynchfourtwenty
i dont see the problem, either ban him entirely or ban him from the classifieds.
It's entirely possible that this is where things are headed. However, we're taking some time to make sure to dot our "I"s and cross our "T"s. That includes trying to get resolution for the affected parties and not having to resort to bannings.
Last edited by BenFenner on 2014-04-25 at 17-45-22.
2014-04-25 17:35:49
...........Or, instead of starting new threads about moderation (correction, constants posts), you (singular) can help them make informed decisions and work with them as a team??

I am not on either side, but the mods are just like cops: You yell at them at every little thing, but when the time comes and you (singular) need them, you want them at your every beckoning...........

Things are being handled behind the scenes. Let due process occur

You yell for Ben to be a Mod, and this is the treatment he (as well as other mods) get............go figure!

A simple "Hey, anyone know what's happening to xx situation" would have sufficed and yielded a much more informed and profession discussion with proper recourse. Just saying.............
2014-04-25 17:37:24
And before feelings are hurt, two of my friends also got ripped by Chappy.........Go figure!
2014-04-25 17:46:56
Please, those of you with names, dates, and specifics regarding sales gone wrong for ANY user, please stop keeping those to yourselves. Post in the appropriate User Feedback thread(s) and let us all know! Why are we just hearing about these now?
2014-04-25 17:48:58
RE: iTrader Rating/Feedback etc. (Only)
Its too bad there isn't a way to force people to leave iTrader feedback for each and every transaction done on this forum. It would then push people who are shy (about speaking up on negative experiences) in to giving a rating, based upon their experience. They would be more inclined to leave a true rating in the moment. However, I understand that isn't possible and the iTrader system is just another tool...

At the end of the day, people need to leave iTrader feedback (both positive AND negative) for their business dealings with other members. Some people speak up and others don't. I supose some people are comfortable and others are not...Just the way it goes, I guess. The forum Feedback section is a great tool!

One final thought, does anybody here have less than a 100% positive iTrader feedback? I have yet to see it, although I certainly haven't gone looking for it.
2014-04-25 17:51:14
I can think of more than three people who all were burned by the same user/s. That should be candidate for "three-strikes" rule.

Another issue is the transparency of the forum is constantly clouded. The secret admin/mod section exists yet none of the users in the "republic" are given any insight as to what happens. Don't you believe that causes an inherit problem? That is fine and dandy (truthfully, good) you guys are doing things, waiting months for any action is just as bureaucratic form of Government that takes forever for a resolution.

When I hear about my friends being taking advantage of, something should be done. Nothing has been done and it has been on-going since 2013.
2014-04-25 17:55:21
Good discussion points by @Kyle and @B15NEOVVL!

Ben, I will try to probe my friends and see if they would like to speak up. One individual I am not sure what the entirety of his deal is (hence why I never spoke up sooner as lacking details means a crappy case), and the other should for the most part still be around.

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