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Thread: Csk builders

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Posts: 131-140 of 141
2012-10-25 14:27:31
#131
Originally Posted by wes
Originally Posted by Keo
the CSK in the B15 with 650lbs springs gave a much better ride than the Nismo suspension for the B15 and the RM/agx on the b14 but that's with the big money 8611's. Can't wait to get this 8611/Miata set up on the B14, that's all a slow Ga16 needs to be fun!


The B15 yellows are not designed to handle that high of a spring rate though with their off the shelf valving. You can have them re-valved but at that point why not just go 8611.

My car was pretty fast around a track on B15 inserts and B15 rears with 350/300 and 450/400. It rode OK on the street as well but it was not near enough spring near the end when I was actually time trialing the car with NASA and pushing it hard on good race tires.

If I kept the car I would have gone GC advance design and somewhere in the 850 front 1000 rear range with the spec V rear beam.

I *think* we are seeing a large difference between folks that are serious track-hounds vs. folks that have street cars that occasionally see a track.

Originally Posted by Shawn
Originally Posted by Re-spect
revived again, anyone get a set?

A set of what? I have my Will-Built CSK's on my Classic with my Hypercoils.

Spec V Yellow fronts, B13 Red rears.

AWESOME ride. The comfort is downright amazing. All the performance, no downsides. I cannot imagine a better non-adjustable, direct replacement, DD performance suspension that is also track-worthy. The struts being adjustable, but nothing else to fiddle with, which is exactly how I wanted it. Bolt it on, set it, and forget it. Perfection.

That bolded part is important to me. "Track-worthy" for my once a year track-attack. With my very limited skills and sticky street-tires. And no "messin-with" my suspension. In Ohio I drove to the track, did not adjust squat, didn't even check my tire-pressure or oil (checked before I left LA), drove around the track as fast as I was able, and drove back to the hotel. Big smile on my face.

I'm quite sure my suspension is currently waaaaay more capable than I am as a driver.

(Hyperco, CSK, Koni bumps, Superpro caster bushings, Progress rear sway on medium, Progress lower control arm brace, OEM front sway, every chassis-brace known to mankind, fully foamed chassis, yada, yada, yada....).

Originally Posted by Re-spect
Originally Posted by coach
I went with the 8610-1436 RACE and 400/335 Swift Springs and will know soon how I like it. My car does more street duty than track duty. HOwever, the reason I went with the 8610 Race is that they were hardly anything more than the 8611 or the maxima/b15 units. I really think it will be a great all around setup and finally have everything in to install them as my custom tubes arrived yesterday.

Brent


Well, here's my impression of the 8610's( housings built by veilside) that i drove to the convention, that was paired with the b15 Koni yellows in the rear not inserts on my b14, along with tein plates in the front and Shigspeed pillowball mounts in the rear. All i can say is, Awsome. Highway driving to the convention was phenomenal( cant speak for the ride back home)LOL.

I went with the basic off the shelf setup GC sells for our B13/14, Veilside and I spoke many times before i pulled the trigger on this setup and I would never go for a spring based setup again. Guys, you have to try this with a coilover setup, paired with the appropriate spring rate according to your driving style. All you hyperco guys, a change might be in the making,LOL....

I need a ride in your vehicle.

And wouldn't the progressive-rate Hypercoils still be more comfortable on a street-focused vehicle? I have never seen progressive rate springs for a coil-over set-up (?).

We are definitely discussing two different focuses for our vehicles. Whether we are leaning towards or focused on a track set-up, or leaning towards a street set-up that will not embarrass itself on a track.

I believe that Jay (@eggman) and I are in the exact same category. And while Jay could probably properly set-up and dial-in a coil-over system, that is way beyond what I even have a desire to mess with.

The consensus that I see amongst these posts is that buying really good Koni dampers will get you what you want and need in either case.
2012-10-25 17:15:05
#132
Originally Posted by Shawn
Originally Posted by wes
Originally Posted by Keo
the CSK in the B15 with 650lbs springs gave a much better ride than the Nismo suspension for the B15 and the RM/agx on the b14 but that's with the big money 8611's. Can't wait to get this 8611/Miata set up on the B14, that's all a slow Ga16 needs to be fun!


The B15 yellows are not designed to handle that high of a spring rate though with their off the shelf valving. You can have them re-valved but at that point why not just go 8611.

My car was pretty fast around a track on B15 inserts and B15 rears with 350/300 and 450/400. It rode OK on the street as well but it was not near enough spring near the end when I was actually time trialing the car with NASA and pushing it hard on good race tires.

If I kept the car I would have gone GC advance design and somewhere in the 850 front 1000 rear range with the spec V rear beam.

I *think* we are seeing a large difference between folks that are serious track-hounds vs. folks that have street cars that occasionally see a track.

Originally Posted by Shawn
Originally Posted by Re-spect
revived again, anyone get a set?

A set of what? I have my Will-Built CSK's on my Classic with my Hypercoils.

Spec V Yellow fronts, B13 Red rears.

AWESOME ride. The comfort is downright amazing. All the performance, no downsides. I cannot imagine a better non-adjustable, direct replacement, DD performance suspension that is also track-worthy. The struts being adjustable, but nothing else to fiddle with, which is exactly how I wanted it. Bolt it on, set it, and forget it. Perfection.

That bolded part is important to me. "Track-worthy" for my once a year track-attack. With my very limited skills and sticky street-tires. And no "messin-with" my suspension. In Ohio I drove to the track, did not adjust squat, didn't even check my tire-pressure or oil (checked before I left LA), drove around the track as fast as I was able, and drove back to the hotel. Big smile on my face.

I'm quite sure my suspension is currently waaaaay more capable than I am as a driver.

(Hyperco, CSK, Koni bumps, Superpro caster bushings, Progress rear sway on medium, Progress lower control arm brace, OEM front sway, every chassis-brace known to mankind, fully foamed chassis, yada, yada, yada....).

Originally Posted by Re-spect
Originally Posted by coach
I went with the 8610-1436 RACE and 400/335 Swift Springs and will know soon how I like it. My car does more street duty than track duty. HOwever, the reason I went with the 8610 Race is that they were hardly anything more than the 8611 or the maxima/b15 units. I really think it will be a great all around setup and finally have everything in to install them as my custom tubes arrived yesterday.

Brent


Well, here's my impression of the 8610's( housings built by veilside) that i drove to the convention, that was paired with the b15 Koni yellows in the rear not inserts on my b14, along with tein plates in the front and Shigspeed pillowball mounts in the rear. All i can say is, Awsome. Highway driving to the convention was phenomenal( cant speak for the ride back home)LOL.

I went with the basic off the shelf setup GC sells for our B13/14, Veilside and I spoke many times before i pulled the trigger on this setup and I would never go for a spring based setup again. Guys, you have to try this with a coilover setup, paired with the appropriate spring rate according to your driving style. All you hyperco guys, a change might be in the making,LOL....

I need a ride in your vehicle.

And wouldn't the progressive-rate Hypercoils still be more comfortable on a street-focused vehicle? I have never seen progressive rate springs for a coil-over set-up (?).

We are definitely discussing two different focuses for our vehicles. Whether we are leaning towards or focused on a track set-up, or leaning towards a street set-up that will not embarrass itself on a track.

I believe that Jay (@eggman) and I are in the exact same category. And while Jay could probably properly set-up and dial-in a coil-over system, that is way beyond what I even have a desire to mess with.

The consensus that I see amongst these posts is that buying really good Koni dampers will get you what you want and need in either case.


Anytime Shawn, if I make it to next years convention, your more than welcome to drive it..
Last edited by Re-spect on 2012-10-25 at 17-15-49.
2012-10-25 17:29:09
#133
Originally Posted by Re-spect
Anytime Shawn, if I make it to next years convention, your more than welcome to drive it..


Can he race a Tiburon in it?
2012-10-25 18:10:31
#134
Originally Posted by wnwright
Originally Posted by Re-spect
Anytime Shawn, if I make it to next years convention, your more than welcome to drive it..


Can he race a Tiburon in it?


Hey, it wasnt me that was driving....
2012-10-25 18:11:42
#135
Shawn - I disagree with your progressive spring theory for street cars. Progressive springs start at the rate purchased and as you compress they get firmer and firmer. What this does is force your shock/strut to become under damped with the extremely high spring rates. Linear springs with quality shocks/struts are the best. It keeps the suspension at a whole more predictable and transitions from side to side as well as in braking are more controlled as well. That is the entire theory behind a company like Swift Springs and why so many race cars run them from road/drag/drift and so on. They utilize linear rates with less coils so that the rate stays the same from compression to droop.

Brent
Last edited by coach on 2012-10-25 at 18-31-17.
2012-10-25 18:13:07
#136
Originally Posted by Re-spect
Originally Posted by wnwright
Originally Posted by Re-spect
Anytime Shawn, if I make it to next years convention, your more than welcome to drive it..


Can he race a Tiburon in it?


Hey, it wasnt me that was driving....


I know... LOL Hence letting somebody else race one... again. Yeah I'm an a-hole... but you knew that.
2012-10-25 18:18:34
#137
Originally Posted by wnwright
Originally Posted by Re-spect
Originally Posted by wnwright
Originally Posted by Re-spect
Anytime Shawn, if I make it to next years convention, your more than welcome to drive it..


Can he race a Tiburon in it?


Hey, it wasnt me that was driving....


I know... LOL Hence letting somebody else race one... again. Yeah I'm an a-hole... but you knew that.


I was always the person to let people who I trust to drive my car. At the end of the day, it can be and will be rebuilt.
2012-10-25 18:26:48
#138
Shit happens. Can't let it get you down.
2012-10-26 15:53:51
#139
Originally Posted by coach
Shawn - I disagree with your progressive spring theory for street cars. Progressive springs start at the rate purchased and as you compress they get firmer and firmer. What this does is force your shock/strut to become under damped with the extremely high spring rates. Linear springs with quality shocks/struts are the best. It keeps the suspension at a whole more predictable and transitions from side to side as well as in braking are more controlled as well. That is the entire theory behind a company like Swift Springs and why so many race cars run them from road/drag/drift and so on. They utilize linear rates with less coils so that the rate stays the same from compression to droop.

Brent

Interesting. I'm following you.

Now what if the strut/shock is fully capable of handling the fully-compressed rate?
Originally Posted by Suspension
B13 Hyperco Gen II
Drop: 1" front and rear
Struts to use: AGX's or better yet CSK's.
Spring rate: 110-290 front, 75-200 rear, progressive rate

The Hyperco max rates of 290/200 are certainly well within the B15 Spec V Yellow fronts and B13 Red rears specifications.

Further, on a street car are we talking about a trade-off of less predictability and control for additional comfort?

All things being equal.....

Spec V Yellow fronts, B13 Red rears for struts.

A) Road Magnets (linear rate) would offer better predictability and control(?).

B) Hypercoil Gen II's (progressive rate) would give up some predictability and control for added comfort(?).

Originally Posted by The
RM GBII B13 Spring rate: 325 front, 250 rear
RM GBII B13 Drop: 1.25" front, 1" rear


Is it fair to say that all things being equal (or damn close as above) that a progressive rate spring would offer less control and predictability but a higher level of comfort?

Otherwise, why in the world would Mike K/Chriscar/Hyperco have made the springs progressive? Why would spring manufacturers offer progressive rate springs? There has to be an upside to progressive rate springs (?).

Swift Springs obviously touts the advantages of linear rate springs, and as expected, echos and supports exactly what you stated. Going into a bit more detail, which I also managed to follow.

Swift Springs USA

However, Swift Springs conveniently offers no advantages to progressive rate springs. Logic tells me there is indeed at least one (1) advantage to progressive rate springs over linear rate springs.

Motorcycle oriented article on the subject.

Linear Vs Progressive Rate Springs - motor-racing.co.uk

Post #3 is rather illuminating and supports my assertation that progressive rate springs are more comfortable on the street, and apparently can - in certain circumstances - even be a benefit on the track.

Linear vs Progressive? - RX7Club.com

Here we go, what is apparently an honest assessment of both the pro's and con's of linear vs. progressive rate springs.

Progressive Springs

Originally Posted by TuningLinx
Each spring design has its own market.

Progressive springs are likely "all-in one" solutions. Progressive springs are often used on performance aftermarket kits like Eibach or others, and they are good for daily performance street driving. They help you achieve the highest performance when driving hard, while providing a smooth, comfortable drive the rest of the time.

Linear springs are more often used in drag racing, road racing, track and races that require a "high spring rate", in which a constant spring rate is more important than a smooth ride. They are still popular because they are:

- Easier to produce and can be made to lower a car beyond the point of progressive springs.
- Easy to work with, because spring rate never changes, allowing quick chassis setup
- Cheaper than progressive springs, allowing most race teams to use several different sets depending on track conditions


I wish I could remember exactly who and where, but along the same lines of thought as presented in the last link, someone stated the change (only thing changed on his vehicle) from Hypercos to RM's resulted in a rougher ride. However, I do not remember whether that was with AGX's or CSK's...

Looking at the pro's and con's of linear vs. progressive rate springs, for my sunny-day driver (garage hoe) on backwoods two-lane blacktops, I stand by my choice of the two (2) possible, direct-replacement, conventional spring choices, the progressive rate Hypercos. I am willing to concede and compromise some level of predictability and control for more outright comfort. I am on a track about once a year. As is, my-incredibly-comfortable-on-the-street performance-suspension is much, much more capable than I am as a driver when I do see a track.

I literally am getting old, with harsh, harsh miles on my human chassis. Lots of irreparable wear and tear (my medical file looks like I was a clumsy stunt-man) on my joints in particular.

Appreciate your input.



Shawn B
Last edited by Shawn B on 2012-10-26 at 17-58-11.
2012-10-26 18:12:09
#140
Progressive springs were produced to do what you are saying, very soft initially and progressively firmer. A quality shock/strut should be able to handle the firm/more compressed part of the spring stroke. The issue with progressive is that you can't lower them much as they require more coils to achieve the effect and wider coils. The progressive rate springs typically are heavier (more unsprung weight). I think that you can achieve similar results with a helper spring (similar to tender spring) that is say 150lb that would handle cracks and small dips and things if you really wanted a soft cadillac ride.

Overall though, I feel that a properly matched insert on a linear rate quality spring like SWIFT is going to rival that ride comfort and give you the performance edge (control/predictability/less unsprung weight). Swift goes a step further with their alloy in that they can do all of this with less coils to eliminate coil bind like most OTS coilovers suffer from.

Brent
Last edited by coach on 2012-10-26 at 18-12-32.
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